Posts by bavman

I really enjoyed reading "The God Delusion" and also "Letters to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris. I agreed with much of both of the books however I don't agree with the assesment they make that all religion should go. That moderate and liberal religion allows conservative fundamentalism to exists. I find that too simplistic and actually I get the impression they haven't spent very much time really delving into spirtuality themselves. Dawkins certainly does a wonderful job of explaining biological evolution and I love his books for that however I find him to go too far to one extreme in blasting all religion.

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If Al Gore was elected in 2000, would 9/11 happened?

by free2beme in

jw
friends

i was thinking about this today, as al gore did win the popular vote and lost because of how the electoral college works.

so people like to blame 9/11 on bush, and fahrenheit 9/11 really tried to make it look like bush.

i remember when the movie, "the road to 9/11" came out, clinton was having a fit that it showed the problems with 9/11 started while he was in office.

bavman

If Gore had been elected 9/11 may have still happened however his response would have been much different. He would have been focused on bringing the perp to justice by going into Afghanistan and not get sidetracked by going off to an adventure in Iraq. He would not have spread fear to the American people but instead sanity. He would have been serious about security without invading people's personal lives. Our national debt would still be shrinking and the victims of Katrina would be getting appropriate help. (SIGH)

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LOVE, ALTRUISM & EVOLUTION

by Dansk in

i'm an evolutionist.

one cannot argue that evolution isn't a fact.

however, i'd be interested in the better informed amongst us here explaining in simple terms how the feeling of love evolved.

bavman

For love or for sex?

Lol! Well, I suppose you could pick up a couple of good moves while observing...

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LOVE, ALTRUISM & EVOLUTION

by Dansk in

i'm an evolutionist.

one cannot argue that evolution isn't a fact.

however, i'd be interested in the better informed amongst us here explaining in simple terms how the feeling of love evolved.

bavman

There are different arguments among evolutionists as regards to altruism. Some see altruism as Terry described, others see it differently. I bought a book by Dr. Franz de Waal after going to his lecture entitled "Our Inner Ape" to be most enlightening. The good doctor is a leading primatologist and psychologist who is a specialist on Bonobos. Altruism in my opinion a great benefit to ourselves and society and in fact has played a wonderful part in evolution. Get the book. He can explain much better than I . Also, if you get the opportunity, go observe some Bonobos.

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Science vs. Religion - Must We Choose Between Them?

by bavman in

i dare to say science and religion are two different animals.

they may try to explain similar things but in different ways.

i don't believe man will ever live without either religion or science nor would i want us too.

bavman

The myths invented by ancient (or even modern) peoples are just not equivalent to the scientific answers discovered by rigorous examination of the available evidence. The former are inconsistent with reality and with each other. They are, at best, guesses made by people who just didn't understand the world as well as we do today. Almost without exception, wherever these myths are specific about the nature of the universe, they are wrong - really, genuinely, measurably wrong.

Perhaps these myths were never meant to be taken literally....

Isn't religion about following the rules and believing the myths without regard to how well they correspond to reality?

No, I don't believe all religion is like that at all. You are arguing against fundamentalism (which I agree is not a good way to look at things).

I live without religion and I think I'm a whole person. I can't see how my life would be further enriched by believing unproven nonsense. Now, don't get me wrong. I find religion fascinating as a subject, and there's no doubt the world would be greatly diminished by the absence of the ceiling of the Sistine chapel or Handel's Messiah. But as for actually believing it? I don't see how that would improve my life one iota even if I could somehow manage to do it.

Some are able to live w/o any religion although in a sense you probably get fulfillment by listening to music and looking at art or reading poetry. This is where religion comes from. Believing...doesn't have to mean taking everything literally.

Look at the world's existing theocracies and tell me how their (assumed) advantages add up to a better life.
Muslim countries, for example, are wildly enthusiastic about creating states entirely run by shariah (religious law).
How is that coming along? How do women fare in these countries? What is the economy and the opportunity for young people growing up under theocracy? What is their hope for the future? Is it peaceful and productive or chillingly cataclysmic?
There have been many variants of (let's call it) experimentation.
My former sister-in-law is an Orthodox Jew. I witness how she and her 5 children and husband live in an entirely insular world of dietary regulations, dress codes, education (home school) and attendance at temple. They are in what I'd call a psychotic bubble. They would disagree.
Everywhere I look at the stain of religion on the intellect of man and see obvious ludicrous nonsense invading people's daily lives.
Hindus starve next to holy cattle. Why? Religion.
Jehovah's Witnesses let their children die ignoring medical help. Why? Religion.
Christians spend millions on books telling them Jesus is about to scoop them up into heaven. Why? Religion.
Believers in the Koran blow up thousand year old Buddah sculptures. Why? Religion.
Amish wear dark clothing, shun automobiles and live in stone age simplicity. Why? Religion.
Mormons baptise dead people. Why? Religion.
Otherwise normal and intelligent people are taught to think they live in a demon infested world run by an ex-angel who wants to run the universe. Why? Religion.

You are arguing against fundamentalism. I agree this is not a fantastic way to look at things and there is a better way.

It is "hand's off".
No criticism is allowed.
No taxes can be levied.
Give religion a wide berth. Special treatment.

I agree this is wrong.

Don't get me wrong. I love science however it can become just as fundamentalist in nature as religion can. That is just the way it goes in anything it seems.

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Science vs. Religion - Must We Choose Between Them?

by bavman in

i dare to say science and religion are two different animals.

they may try to explain similar things but in different ways.

i don't believe man will ever live without either religion or science nor would i want us too.

bavman

Religion is man's first attempt at understanding the universe. It is mankinds way of making sense out of why things are the way they are by surrounding the details with a story and characters.

It is also a way to experience something larger than ourselves and a way to make connection to our fellowman. It is more in tune with the arts than the testing and poking of science (not that there is anything wrong with that).

Rather than submit to measurement, skepticism and demands for quantification and logical proofs; religious leaders became highly indignant and intolerant of being questioned.
Yet, religious men who possessed genius began trying to organize religious thinking into more logical presentations and arguments.
By the time of the Protestant Reformation men were ready for argumentation that pitted ideas against orthodoxies.
The by products of religion were always promises of a better tomorrow and mere persecutions and death today.
Not all religion is like you just described.

74

Science vs. Religion - Must We Choose Between Them?

by bavman in

i dare to say science and religion are two different animals.

they may try to explain similar things but in different ways.

i don't believe man will ever live without either religion or science nor would i want us too.

bavman

Unfortunately, some have a penchant for mixing religion into science (as with the intelligent design movement). Such ideas are completely antithetical to modern scientific research and thinking .
Such mixing religion into science is also extremely damaging to the reputation and credibility of American scientific research and study, which is definitely bad for America, both in terms of its reputation in the world and in terms of the actual integrity of its scientific community.
Exploring and examining certain religious ideas such as creationism is perfectly okay in a religion and philosophy class, but positing such ideas as scientific "theory" makes one a laughing stock in the world of true scientific thought and research.

I would agree. Science and religion are different. It is not a good idea to mix them because they are two different ways of looking at things.

There is another way.

I assume Sir Thomas that by 'another way' you would mean (if I understand your' posts somewhat correctly) simply 'letting be' and being in tune with 'what is'. I would agree this is a 'good way'. I would also argue that religion does teach this same thing if not taken too literally and if you don't get stuck on the rituals, sacred writings, and hierarchal hoopla.

74

Science vs. Religion - Must We Choose Between Them?

by bavman in

i dare to say science and religion are two different animals.

they may try to explain similar things but in different ways.

i don't believe man will ever live without either religion or science nor would i want us too.

bavman

I dare to say science and religion are two different animals. They may try to explain similar things but in different ways. An example of trying to explain a similar thing might be the age old question of how did we get here? Some might point to a particular creation myth that they know of because of the culture they grew up in. Some might point to the scientific view of evolution. Is either of these more right or more wrong than the other? I dare to say no. I believe they are simply two different ways of trying to explain the same question.

Which brings me to the subject of myth. Are myths false, untrue stories? I again dare to say no. I don't recall the name of a Native American man who said this but his preface to his peoples creation myth explains this thought well. He said, 'I don't know if it happened this way or not, but I know this story is true.'

To me religion is a different way of experiencing reality than science. Both can be true and helpful, both can be untrue and hurtful. It is up to us to find what works for us and communicate to others what is hurtful not only to ourselves but to society.

I don't believe man will ever live without either religion or science nor would I want us too. We need religion and science to be whole persons and to live a life that is not dry but instead enriching.