Posts by dorayakii

108

do you believe in karma?

by SpiceItUp in

jw
friends

we have all heard the cliche' "what goes around comes around" but do you really believe it?.

i know this person that for many years has been unkind, devious and vengeful and then over more recent years has had bad luck everywhere they turned around.

i mean one thing after another.

dorayakii

Karma requires a patern,,paterns are the way the human psyche perceive events as happening,,they are human psychic projections,,,

I agree frankiespeakin, the idea of karma is not a cosmic concept, it is a psychological concept. Humans can perceive the same events as good or as bad depending on their mood or frame of mind. When we do good things, we feel that we deserve something good so we either perceive neutral events AS good, OR we notice the objectively good events more.

It is called "counterfactual thinking", and it colours every aspect of our lives. When we break up with our partner amicably we often remember the good times... when we break up violently, we immediately dwell on the negative things... If we win a bronze medal, we can feel terrible that we didn't win the gold or silver, or we can feel grateful that we won anything at all and are actually the third best at our sport in the world. It's all about frame of mind.

Human brains (and animal brains) constantly fall victim to the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy, also known as "correlation is not causation" which basically means that " since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one."Sometimes it's called " Rooster Syndrome", a belief that the crowing of the cockerel actually causes the sun to rise".
Many experiments have been done on different animals showing how they associate certain actions with a certain result even though it is not the real cause. Superstitious practices such as lucky pants/socks, lucky mascots, rituals before tests examinations and other superstitious practices are a result of this behaviour trait. We ALL do it, no matter how "rational" we are.

Another human trait which probably evolved to help us in social interactions is the "Theory of Mind". In order for us to feel empathy for someone or guess what they are thinking, we need to realise that they too have a mind. This seems very simple, but it is not.

An experiment with chimpanzees and 6-year old human children was carried out recently. There were two pairs of sunglasses, the blue one was completely opaque, letter no light through; the yellow one was a normal pair of sunglasses. The participant (whether chimp or 6 year old) tried on both pairs of glasses and then the glasses were given to 2 adults sitting on a sofa. The two people had sweets in their hands.

The participant was encouraged to ask one of the sweet-bearing adults for some sweets without speaking, just indicating by gesture that you would like some. The children ALWAYS went to the person with yellow sunglasses, and when asked "why?" they replied "because he can see, and she can't see". The chimps on the other hand, approached the seated sweet-bearing adults randomly, not grasping that the blue-glasses clad woman could NOT see them, even though they'd tried on the glasses themselves. They were utterly confused at why the woman with the blue glasses would not give them anything.

The conclusion is that chimps don't have a Theory of Mind. They cannot imagine that another peoson has their own perspective, their own mind.

The Theory of Mind is one of the unique characteristics that makes us human, it enables empathy, and empathy is the basis for morality.

However, it also has side-effects:

Whenever people saw storms destroy their crops and attributed it to a sky-god, they were misapplying the Theory of Mind to storms. Whenever you shout at your computer and curse it for not working, you are assuming it has a malicious mind that is out to get you. Whenever we assume that the cosmos has a "plan" or rewards us for our good actions and seeks retribution for our bad actions we are misapplying the Theory of Mind to the cosmos.

Any discussion of karma is difficult because there are so many schools of thought about what it is. It is not a scientific term that has an internationally recognised and exclusive meaning. However, the kind of karma that means "the cosmos will punish me for bad, and reward me for good", is a misapplication of the Theory of Mind.

108

do you believe in karma?

by SpiceItUp in

jw
friends

we have all heard the cliche' "what goes around comes around" but do you really believe it?.

i know this person that for many years has been unkind, devious and vengeful and then over more recent years has had bad luck everywhere they turned around.

i mean one thing after another.

dorayakii

Karma is nothing more than a child-like desire to believe in rewards and punishments.

I agree... it is a kind of superstition.

It is child-like in the sense that it appeals to one of the earliest plaintive exclamations that we have as children: "IT'S NOT FAIR!!"

It's a human characteristic to seek justice and fairness, and we project this anthropocentric appeal onto the cosmos. However, in reality, the universe is NOT fair, it doesn't think about how to punish those who do wrong things.

As a very famous scientist said, nature is "red in tooth and claw", and humans are a part of nature, so we are not exempt from its "disinterest" and "impartiality". Because we have bigger brains we can manipulate the outcome of our actions much more than other animals...

...BUT another side-effect of our big brains is our overactive imaginations, and our subconscious search for patterns where none exist (how many people have seen an animal or a face in the clouds? or fallen 'victim' to a really good optical illusion?). What makes us human is our desire for "meaning" and order in our lives and we find it very difficult to shake off those feelings even in adulthood...

I consider myself one of the least superstitious people I know but even I the other day fell victim to my human nature to look for meaning. I saw a magpie and looked around for another one for a good while before stopping and thinking "What on Earth am I doing?". The strange thing is, I was never taught to be superstitious in that way. Brought up as a JW, I was superstitious in the sense of believing in God, angels, demons etc. but the JWs as you all know reject superstitions of the "black cat", "walk under ladder" kind. It was a minor example of my brain looking for meaning, patterns, signs... and it completely circumnavigated my rational mind.

108

do you believe in karma?

by SpiceItUp in

jw
friends

we have all heard the cliche' "what goes around comes around" but do you really believe it?.

i know this person that for many years has been unkind, devious and vengeful and then over more recent years has had bad luck everywhere they turned around.

i mean one thing after another.

dorayakii

Life is LOADS more complicated than "what you sow you will reap". That is just a simplistic aphorism...

In real life, it is very often true, but sometimes the unexpected can happen and people get off scott-free, or people seemingly get punished for things they haven't done... Over-simplistic thinking.

In some ways the Buddhist idea of karma has been misunderstood by the classic black-and-white thinking of the "West" in general to mean some sort of cosmic retribution. It is also often misinterpreted as a platitude to those who can't get it into their head that sometimes things happen for no reason. It is somewhat superstitious thinking to believe that some "force" will balance out all wrong-doings. Reality doesn't work like that...

108

do you believe in karma?

by SpiceItUp in

jw
friends

we have all heard the cliche' "what goes around comes around" but do you really believe it?.

i know this person that for many years has been unkind, devious and vengeful and then over more recent years has had bad luck everywhere they turned around.

i mean one thing after another.

dorayakii

If karma means fate or cosmic retribution, then no, I don't believe in karma...
If karma means cause and effect, then yes, I believe in it...

There is no cosmic force in my opinion which dishes out justice to those who do wrong. Many people do bad things yet never "reap what they sow", and still others live a spotless life and still have bad luck. Foetuses and babies die without having built up any karmic good or bad luck in their short lives, mass murderers, rapists and paedophiles often walk free without any retribution in their life. Karma is not a universal principle in the same way as cause and effect are. Sometimes, yes, bad things do come back to haunt you, but that is a matter of luck of the draw. If you don't know how to "cover you back" then bad things will bite you in the arse....

If you kill a person, the effect is that the person will die and there will be a few angry people who want to catch you and bring you to justice and a legal system which will imprison you.

If you kill a person secretly, hidng your tracks carefully and never being found out, there is no need to believe that any retribution will ever befall you except the guilt on your conscience.

16

The Mandy & Judi Show

by punkofnice in

i'm trying to help launch an 'apostate' comedy duo.. check mandy & judi on the link below.. i didn't embed the vid because we want to see how far the hit count goes..... http://www.youtube.com/user/twinklefingersbsl?feature=watch

dorayakii

You girls are hilarious...

3

Ex-JW Meetup in London

by dorayakii in

jw
friends

i'm organising a meetup in london on friday the 23rd of march 2012 if anyoone's interested.

it'll be held at the euston flyer pub, which is almost halfway between king's cross and euston stations.

the address is:.

dorayakii

Sorry, I haven't checked this for ages... There'll be another one in a couple month's time if you get this message too late. It's 6pm tonight...

3

Ex-JW Meetup in London

by dorayakii in

jw
friends

i'm organising a meetup in london on friday the 23rd of march 2012 if anyoone's interested.

it'll be held at the euston flyer pub, which is almost halfway between king's cross and euston stations.

the address is:.

dorayakii

Just "upping" this one again so more people can see it on a Saturday afternoon...

3

Ex-JW Meetup in London

by dorayakii in

jw
friends

i'm organising a meetup in london on friday the 23rd of march 2012 if anyoone's interested.

it'll be held at the euston flyer pub, which is almost halfway between king's cross and euston stations.

the address is:.

dorayakii

I'm organising a meetup in London on Friday the 23rd of March 2012 if anyoone's interested.

It'll be held at the Euston Flyer Pub, which is almost halfway between King's Cross and Euston stations. The address is:

83-87 Euston Road,

London

NW1 2RA

It's a really good opportunity to meet up with people who share the same or similar experiences with you. People who've been out for a long time can help people who are still in, or who have just come out... and most of all it's a great opportunity to make new friends and have a natter and a laugh.

As it's a public event, the crowd I had in mind is varied. You could already be out of the organisation, or you could still be going to meetings. Even f you're still in the organisation and afraid of people knowing where you are going to be, you can just show up without posting anything here.

You'll be able to identify us by a sign on our table that'll say something like "XJW".

7

Religious Experiences Shrink Part of the Brain

by dorayakii in

i haven't been around for a while but i thought this was hilarious enough to pop my head back through the jwd door!!.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=religious-experiences-shrink-part-of-brain.

religious experiences shrink part of the braina study links life-changing religious experiences, like being born again, with atrophy in the hippocampus.

dorayakii

I haven't been around for a while but I thought this was hilarious enough to pop my head back through the JWD door!!

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=religious-experiences-shrink-part-of-brain

Religious Experiences Shrink Part of the Brain

A study links life-changing religious experiences, like being born again, with atrophy in the hippocampus

religion, brain, shrink,praying

Religion changes the brain. Image: Roger Branch

The article, “Religious factors and hippocampal atrophy in late life,” by Amy Owen and colleagues at Duke University represents an important advance in our growing understanding of the relationship between the brain and religion. The study, published March 30 in PLoS One, showed greater atrophy in the hippocampus in individuals who identify with specific religious groups as well as those with no religious affiliation. It is a surprising result, given that many prior studies have shown religion to have potentially beneficial effects on brain function, anxiety, and depression.

A number of studies have evaluated the acute effects of religious practices, such as meditation and prayer, on the human brain. A smaller number of studies have evaluated the longer term effects of religion on the brain. Such studies, like the present one, have focused on differences in brain volume or brain function in those people heavily engaged in meditation or spiritual practices compared to those who are not. And an even fewer number of studies have explored the longitudinal effects of doing meditation or spiritual practices by evaluating subjects at two different time points.

In this study, Owen et al. used MRI to measure the volume of the hippocampus, a central structure of the limbic system that is involved in emotion as well as in memory formation. They evaluated the MRIs of 268 men and women aged 58 and over, who were originally recruited for the NeuroCognitive Outcomes of Depression in the Elderly study, but who also answered several questions regarding their religious beliefs and affiliation. The study by Owen et al. is unique in that it focuses specifically on religious individuals compared to non-religious individuals. This study also broke down these individuals into those who are born again or who have had life-changing religious experiences.

The results showed significantly greater hippocampal atrophy in individuals reporting a life-changing religious experience. In addition, they found significantly greater hippocampal atrophy among born-again Protestants, Catholics, and those with no religious affiliation, compared with Protestants not identifying as born-again.

The authors offer the hypothesis that the greater hippocampal atrophy in selected religious groups might be related to stress. They argue that some individuals in the religious minority, or those who struggle with their beliefs, experience higher levels of stress. This causes a release of stress hormones that are known to depress the volume of the hippocampus over time. This might also explain the fact that both non-religious as well as some religious individuals have smaller hippocampal volumes.

This is an interesting hypothesis. Many studies have shown positive effects of religion and spirituality on mental health, but there are also plenty of examples of negative impacts. There is evidence that members of religious groups who are persecuted or in the minority might have markedly greater stress and anxiety as they try to navigate their own society. Other times, a person might perceive God to be punishing them and therefore have significant stress in the face of their religious struggle. Others experience religious struggle because of conflicting ideas with their religious tradition or their family. Even very positive, life-changing experiences might be difficult to incorporate into the individual’s prevailing religious belief system and this can also lead to stress and anxiety. Perceived religious transgressions can cause emotional and psychological anguish. This “religious” and “spiritual pain” can be difficult to distinguish from pure physical pain. And all of these phenomena can have potentially negative effects on the brain.

Thus, Owen and his colleagues certainly pose a plausible hypothesis. They also cite some of the limitations of their findings, such as the small sample size. More importantly, the causal relationship between brain findings and religion is difficult to clearly establish. Is it possible, for example, that those people with smaller hippocampal volumes are more likely to have specific religious attributes, drawing the causal arrow in the other direction? Further, it might be that the factors leading up to the life-changing events are important and not just the experience itself. Since brain atrophy reflects everything that happens to a person up to that point, one cannot definitively conclude that the most intense experience was in fact the thing that resulted in brain atrophy. So there are many potential factors that could lead to the reported results. (It is also somewhat problematic that stress itself did not correlate with hippocampal volumes since this was one of the potential hypotheses proposed by the authors and thus, appears to undercut the conclusions.) One might ask whether it is possible that people who are more religious suffer greater inherent stress, but that their religion actually helps to protect them somewhat. Religion is frequently cited as an important coping mechanism for dealing with stress.

This new study is intriguing and important. It makes us think more about the complexity of the relationship between religion and the brain. This field of scholarship, referred to as neurotheology, can greatly advance our understanding of religion, spirituality, and the brain. Continued studies of both the acute and chronic effects of religion on the brain will be highly valuable. For now, we can be certain that religion affects the brain--we just are not certain how.

9

untitled

by dorayakii in

i read that according to an american study, jehovah's witnesses have the highest member turnover of any religion.why do you think this is?

why is it that although, compared with other religions, so many people are getting baptised yet a large chunk of members are also leaving the watchtower society?

is there something instrinsic to the society that makes it difficult to stay in?.

dorayakii

Yeah, I can't either. I tried to insert the website but I got an error message...