Impossible conversation: Jesus and Nicodemus: YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN

by Terry in

i am a member on new testament scholar bart ehrman's blog, and the professor is currently outlining a new book he is writing about false memory and the life of jesus.. an interesting post occurred today in which he gives an example of a very famous scripture,.

example of a false memory of jesus teaching i turn to a famous passage in the gospel of john, jesus dialogue with nicodemus (john 3:1-15).

nicodemus is said to be a jewish leader who comes up to jesus and affirms that jesus must come from god because of the great things that he said to have done.

Terry

In 1956, the book THE SEARCH FOR BRIDEY MURPHY published and became a runaway bestseller.
The book dealt with the memory of a woman named Virginia Tighe, an ordinary American housewife who’d been regressed hypnotically, seemingly into a previous life by the book’s author, Morey Bernstein.
After sensational reaction from the reading public, newspaper investigative reporting commenced ferreting out details and discrepancies in Tighe’s account of her life as an Irish girl growing up in Cork, under the name, Bridey Murphy.
Long story short: Cryptomnesia was the root cause.
__Cryptomnesia occurs when a forgotten memory returns without it being recognized as such by the subject, who believes it is something new and original. It is a memory bias whereby a person may falsely recall generating a thought, an idea, a song, or a joke, not deliberately engaging in plagiarism but rather experiencing a memory as if it were a new inspiration.__
(The experts who examined the case of Virginia Tighe came to the conclusion that the best way to arrive at the truth was to check back not to Ireland but to Tighe’s own childhood and her relationship with her parents. Morey Bernstein stated that Virginia Tighe (whom he called Ruth Simmons in the book) was brought up by a Norwegian uncle and his German-Scottish-Irish wife. However, it did not state that her actual parents were both part Irish and that she had lived with them until the age of three. It also did not mention that an Irish immigrant named Bridie Murphy Corkell (1892–1957)[2] lived across the street from Tighe’s childhood home in Chicago, Illinois. Scientists are satisfied that everything Virginia Tighe said can be explained as a memory of her long-forgotten childhood. The psychologist Andrew Neher wrote that as a child Tighe was a close friend to a neighbor whose life was very similar to Bridey Murphy’s.) Wiki article

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The reason I cite this particular case is to highlight the fact no fraud was purposefully perpetrated, but Virginia Tighe had absorbed many details about her neighbor from listening in childhood. These details emerged as a ‘first person narrative’ when Tighe was in a hypnotic state.

Isn’t it reasonable to conclude the transmission of details of eye-witness accounts of Jesus could likewise have been absorbed as hearsay and repeated as autonomous first person memories–then transmitted with corruptions by later stories, legends, imagination? No culpable plagiarism or malicious intent need be attributed along the way.

24

Impossible conversation: Jesus and Nicodemus: YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN

by Terry in

i am a member on new testament scholar bart ehrman's blog, and the professor is currently outlining a new book he is writing about false memory and the life of jesus.. an interesting post occurred today in which he gives an example of a very famous scripture,.

example of a false memory of jesus teaching i turn to a famous passage in the gospel of john, jesus dialogue with nicodemus (john 3:1-15).

nicodemus is said to be a jewish leader who comes up to jesus and affirms that jesus must come from god because of the great things that he said to have done.

Terry

I am a member on New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman's blog, and the professor is currently outlining a new book he is writing about FALSE MEMORY and the life of Jesus.

An interesting post occurred today in which he gives an example of a very famous scripture,

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". . . example of a false memory of Jesus’ teaching I turn to a famous passage in the Gospel of John, Jesus’ dialogue with Nicodemus (John 3:1-15). Nicodemus is said to be a Jewish leader who comes up to Jesus and affirms that Jesus must come from God because of the great things that he said to have done. Jesus then tells him “Unless one if born ANOTHEN, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven” (John 3:3).

I have left the Greek word ANOTHEN untranslated because it is the key to the conversation as it proceeds. It is a Greek word that actually has two different meanings, depending on the context within which it is used. On one hand it can mean “a second time.” If that’s what it means here, then Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be “born again.” But it can also mean “from above.” If that’s what it means then Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must have a birth from God above if he is to see the kingdom of heaven.

The reason this double-meaning matters is because Nicodemus takes Jesus to mean that he has to be born a second time, and he is incredulous. He responds by asking how a person can crawl back into his mother’s womb to be born again. But Jesus tells him that he does not mean a second, physical birth. He is talking about a birth from heaven, a birth made possible by the Spirit of God who comes from above. Anyone who has had such a heavenly birth, to accompany his earthly birth, can then ascend to heaven and have eternal life.

This is arguably the most famous passage of the New Testament Gospels that just about no one “gets” because they don’t read it in Greek, and it is only in Greek that it actually makes sense, since the double meaning of the word ANOTHEN cannot be replicated in English. And so English translators of John 3:3 and 3:5 have to decide whether they translate the word as “again” or “from above.” Either way creates problems for the translation, since the word has to mean both things for the conversation to make sense, with Nicodemus understanding the word in one way and Jesus meaning it in another.

But it is precisely this key point – that the pivotal word means both things – that shows the conversation almost certainly didn’t happen, at least as described in the third chapter of John. The double meaning that cannot be replicated in English also cannot be replicated in Aramaic. Recall: Jesus, an Aramaic-speaking Jew, is allegedly talking with a Jewish teacher in Jerusalem, where, again, Aramaic was the native tongue. They would have been speaking Aramaic. But the double meaning of the key Greek word in the passage doesn’t work in Aramaic. In other words, the word for “from above” does not mean “a second time” in Aramaic (and vice versa). And so, since the entire conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus is predicated precisely on a double meaning of a word that in Aramaic doesn’t have a double meaning, it could not have taken place as described.

The conversation is not described in any other ancient Christian source. It appears not to have been a conversation that Jesus really had, with Nicodemus or anyone else. It is a conversation that was either created by the author of the Gospel of John or by a Greek-speaking story-teller before him who passed it along until it came to be written in the Gospel. Those who recall that Jesus had this discussion with Nicodemus, telling him he must be “born again,” are misremembering what actually could have happened."

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"Some of my readers have not understood the point that I have been trying to make about this, mainly because I have not explained it very well. When I say that a Gospel passage represents a “false memory,” I am not necessarily saying that the author of the account is misremembering something. That may indeed to be the case, but it is impossible to know. It may also be the case that he’s just makin’ something up. My point, though, is that the way Jesus came to be remembered by those who *read* these Gospel accounts, and formed their impressions of Jesus from them, was based on these narratives that are not true to history. They may be religiously true or theologically true, but they aren’t historically true. It is in that sense, and only in that sense, that I am referring to them as false memories.

People still today have false memories of Jesus based on what they have read in the Bible. In this chapter 5, I deal with false memories involving the life (as opposed to the death) of Jesus – including his teachings."

56

Who REALLY believed in the idea of living forever on earth??

by stuckinarut2 in

seriously.....even when you were 100% in "the truth", did you really believe in living forever?

?

Terry

I can say now, with a lot of years under my belt, I wasn't born with the genetic makeup of person who plunges into belief. The stress and paranoia of imprisonment, I believe, drove me into the delusion as an escape.

I also simultaneously focused my entire attention on acquiring expertise in my religion. When I was paroled, I was railroaded into Regular Pioneer work.

There was so little of my life left with__time__to be a person, I was swallowed up in a kind of rushing torrent of servitude and commitment. Call it active inertia, if you will.

But eventually on a conscious level, I knew I had to escape the prison of belief or risk losing myself and my sanity. By physically uprooting my family and moving fifteen hundred miles away, I managed to salvage my mental health, create a meaningful career and break loose from the superglue of social engineering, which is the lifeblood of the JW scam.

Now what does all that have to do with my belief in LIVING FOREVER on a Paradise Earth.

Nothing and everything!

It was the "reason" I gave for doing what I was doing. But, there wasn't any reality attached to it. I never ever visualized experiencing it. I didn't long for it. I was not convinced of it intellectually.

I'm not very good at believing things by nature, you see. I'm skeptical of happiness connected to wishful thinking, I guess you could say.

Religion is a lot of wishful thinking, imho.

From my study of the Early Church Fathers, I do know that Papius (who interviewed the remaining eye and ear-witnesses of Jesus) related a belief in the 10,000 year reign of Christ on Earth.

What that means is beyond my reckoning. The Church held him to be dangerous to the faith and branded him a heretic!

Heck, I can identify with THAT!

75

Having Faith in the Bible

by william draper in

i know many on here have lost faith in the bible , is it possible that is because ones do not have the right perspective regarding it .

we have usually been taught by bad teachers , or ignorant .

i believe if we take an honest look at the bible , we will see that it gives us the best answers to crucial matters , it gives us some amount of bearings ( understanding ) , which without having such knowledge we would all be more like walking zombies in amanner of speaking , we would be lacking hope in something better , for surely something better is to come , how can we be sure , .

Terry

api.ning.com

What is called "Bible knowledge" is really ignorance disguised as knowledge.

The amount of time which has been wasted by humanity, laboring under the false premise of 'divinely revealed wisdom,' is appalling.

I'm reminded of a fellow named Cruden.

In the mid-1720s, Alexander Cruden took on a self-imposed task of Herculean proportions, Himalayan tedium, and inhuman meticulousness: he decided to compile the most thorough concordance of the King James Version of the Bible to date. The first edition ofCruden's Concordance was published in 1737. How could he have possibly completed such a project? Every similar undertaking before or since has been the work of a vast team of people—in recent times made incomparably easier by computers. Cruden worked alone in his lodgings, writing the whole thing out by hand. The KJV has 777,746 words, all of which needed to be put in their proper place. Cruden even wrote explanatory entries on many of the words—in effect, including a Bible dictionary as a bonus. The word “Synagogue,” for example, prompted a 4,000-word essay.

Furthermore, Cruden’s day job was as a “Corrector of the Press” (proofreader). He would give hawk-eyed attention to prose all day long. Then he would come home at night, not to rest his eyes and enjoy some relaxation, but rather to read the Bible—stopping at every single word to secure the right sheet from the tens of thousands of pieces of paper all around him and to record accurately the reference in its appropriate place. He had no patron, no publisher, no financial backers: his only commission was a divine one.

Cruden’s Concordance has never been out of print. Some hundred editions have been published, many of which have been reprinted untold times; shoppers at a popular online bookstore today can choose from 18 different in-print versions of Cruden’s.

Cruden was institutionalized for madness four times in his life. His behavior was often bizarre.

On another occasion, Cruden had apparently gone to break up a brawl but ended up spending the best part of an hour admonishing disorderly soldiers not to swear while periodically whacking them on the head with a shovel. He also would propose to women with whom he had established no romantic bond (one such intended he had not even met). Being unable to take no for an answer, he would then turn himself into a persistent nuisance, if not a stalker.
Above from:http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-good-insane-concordance-maker

75

Having Faith in the Bible

by william draper in

i know many on here have lost faith in the bible , is it possible that is because ones do not have the right perspective regarding it .

we have usually been taught by bad teachers , or ignorant .

i believe if we take an honest look at the bible , we will see that it gives us the best answers to crucial matters , it gives us some amount of bearings ( understanding ) , which without having such knowledge we would all be more like walking zombies in amanner of speaking , we would be lacking hope in something better , for surely something better is to come , how can we be sure , .

Terry

If 'God' truly wished to communicate with mankind in a manner both convincing and immediately productive, He would make good on His bluff to cause the very stones to cry out.

I'd listen to a talking stone. I suspect everybody else would too.

To Wit:

Luke 19:40New King James Version (NKJV)

40 But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”

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Intellectual honesty compels you to start in a neutral frame of mind rather than assuming your presupposition into 'unassailable' status and inviting rebuttal.

Your premise gives you away. You didn't ask if a good life well-lived necessarily compelled mankind to look toward ancient books as the foundation of truth and understanding. Why would anyone choose that as the starting point? The truly great strides mankind has made in the last two centuries have been IN SPITE OF the 'wisdom' of the world's 'holy' books.

Equality for Women, Equality for people of color, child protection, banning smoking, awareness of the necessity of balanced diet and a regimen of exercise, public education, etc.---these strides toward improving society were secular in nature.

Today's great battle will focus on acceptance of homosexuals as our brothers and sisters without prejudice. A free society cannot function without human rights.

The Bible is the last refuge for narrow-minded bigotry disguised as piety and submission to the 'will of God'.

75

Having Faith in the Bible

by william draper in

i know many on here have lost faith in the bible , is it possible that is because ones do not have the right perspective regarding it .

we have usually been taught by bad teachers , or ignorant .

i believe if we take an honest look at the bible , we will see that it gives us the best answers to crucial matters , it gives us some amount of bearings ( understanding ) , which without having such knowledge we would all be more like walking zombies in amanner of speaking , we would be lacking hope in something better , for surely something better is to come , how can we be sure , .

Terry

The ultimate test of the Bible as the 'divine' gift of the living God to mankind comes down

to this challenge.
What one thing (if one can even be found) which is testable and provable, was written in Scripture which could not have been written by any mind other than the mind of God?

Is there one piece of knowledge no man could have known?

Now some might say: Prophecy! But, a prophetic pronouncement made after the fact is not really prophecy, is it? The Book of Daniel is suspiciously late making its way into print.

The references to the fall of Jerusalem too cannot escape the likelihood of being post-destruction rather than Pre.

All in all, it is the exasperating contortions of apologists turning thin air into substance which has maintained for the evangelical Fundamentalists of the world, an illusion of numinous transcendence for the Bible.

The Bible had little importance for Christianity until the Protestant Reformation. The authority of the Pope had to be replaced by an inerrant guide of some sort.

Thanks to Martin Luther, the theory of SOLA SCRIPTURA replaced Magisterium of Catholicism.

The theory was this, a devout and pious seeker-after-Truth only needed a Bible and prayer for Holy Spirit to guide him to perfect understanding of God's will.

What has transpired in the practical test of Sola Scriptura since the 16th Century?

40+ thousand Denominations of Christianity!

That's like 2+2= 40,000 different answers!

Sola scriptura was one of the main theological beliefs that Martin Luther proclaimed against the Catholic Church during the Protestant Reformation.

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The work of textual criticism, archeology, paleontologists, and modern science have put to rest the claims made for inerrancy, except for the most radically disposed apologists of today. The defense made by Fundamentalists for the integrity of the Bible is couched in rather carefully parsed terms:

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Biblical inerrancy, as formulated in the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy", is the doctrine that the Bible "is without error or fault in all its teaching";[1] or, at least, that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact".

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However, there exists NO ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT at all to prove this assertion!

19

My first "disagreement" with standard JW thinking

by TTATT_Paladin in

about two years after i was baptized, i had this incident.

i looked at it as an isolated incident at the time, but now realize it would have had basically the same result with 99.99% of any jws not members here.. i will keep it short.

i was talking with a person who was raised in the religion.

Terry

The etymology of the word Pagan is revealing.

It meant 'country bumpkin' or somebody living outside the city. A "hick," as seen by those sophisticated inside the city walls, was an object of bullying and contempt.

Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district.

19

My first "disagreement" with standard JW thinking

by TTATT_Paladin in

about two years after i was baptized, i had this incident.

i looked at it as an isolated incident at the time, but now realize it would have had basically the same result with 99.99% of any jws not members here.. i will keep it short.

i was talking with a person who was raised in the religion.

Terry

http://www.scribd.com/doc/222382341/1935-Calendar-of-Jehovah-God#scribd

The Calendar of Jehovah God

1935 saw the brief attempt by Jehovah's Witnesses to jettison the Gregorian Calendar and substitute a new one which the Golden Age magazine called "the Calendar of Jehovah God."

The 1935 Yearbook published an advance copy of the new Calendar and it was mentioned in the March 1, 1935 Watchtower. The series appeared in 3 Golden Age issues in March and April. Apparently, Rutherford's support waned and a warning article on the calendar appeared in the May 1, 1935 Watchtower. Apparently, there are no further references to the new calendar in later publications. It has never been discussed in modern JW history books.

From page 68 of the Yearbook 1935

22

The 50 Ways to Be Disfellowshipped

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

i was wondering ... what are all of the "official" reasons provided by elders for disfellowshipping someone?

i know the most common reasons are adultery and fornication, but what about the others?

a couple of years ago i traveled back to my hometown` and one of my old jw acquaintances told me that her grown son had been disfellowshipped for refusing to stop associating with another disfellowshipped person.

Terry

You can be DF'd for suspicion of immorality!

The Elder's 'suspect' and that is enough.

284

I'm an ABSENTHEIST. Are you also?

by EdenOne in

it just dawned on me.

the existence of god can't be proved, neither is there evidence of god's inexistence.

so, i'm neither theist neither atheist.

Terry

Religious faith operates in much the same way as spackle used to shore up cracks. The crack is a gap between actually existing planes of fact-based knowledge. As Science fills in information, the cracks narrow and the use for 'spackle' correspondingly diminishes.

Religion was man's first effort at philosophy attempting to explain the universe, to give a coherent frame of reference to man’s life and a code of moral values. The problems arise by turning man's attention in wrong contexts: supernatural domains of invisible persons and uncaused causes.

The Christian versions of God point to a different sort of 'future' toward which mankind is said to be heading. As we know, from being Jehovah's Witnesses, the religious future nullifies any expenditure of effort toward THE PRESENT. Education, social progress, humanitarianism is, therefore futile.

Descriptions of the supernatural realm of God consist of negatives. Religious teachers tamper with reality and dampen ration thinking. They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is. All their identifications consist of negating: God is that which no human mind can know, they say—and proceed to demand that you consider it knowledge—God is non-man, heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions are not acts of defining, but of wiping out.

A lingering and improbable fear is at the root of God belief like monsters under the bed or in the closet. Somewhere between wishful thinking and a vague sense of gratitude for what we can't explain rests the longing to put a face on our irrationality.

That's my opinion; your mileage may very well vary.

Terry

Posts by Terry

Luke 19:40New King James Version (NKJV)