Posts by doogie

i'm afraid i'll one day have to kill someone with a blunt object. i've had dreams where i'm being attacked and i have to fight them off with a bat or golf club or something. they're the most disturbing dreams i've ever had.

alright, pseudo-psychologists...have at it.

40

Links between Jesus and other ancient Man-Gods

by doogie in

recently, at the prompting of another poster, i began to look into the similarities between jesus and other man-gods of ancient cultures.

i was shocked!

not so much by the minute details shared between the gospels and the stories of krishna, osiris, zoroaster, mithras, dionysus and others, but mainly because i had never heard of this before.. things like: being born of a virgin, espousing the redeeming power of baptism, turning water into wine at a wedding, having an entourage of 12 close followers, those 12 sharing a final meal with the god, instructing his followers to eat of his body and blood to benefit from his sacrifice (the blood usually symbolized by juice or wine), sacrificing his life by crucifixion on behalf of mankind, being dead for 3 days and then resurrected, he will return at some point to cleanse the world, and much more.. now, i know this is probably nothing new to most of you, but i was amazed.

doogie

hooberus-

thanks for the link. i think you make your argument very clearly (as you stated so succinctly in your last post).

this stuff is muddled at best and i suppose it will always be debated, but i think it's relatively clear that the symbolism of the cross (in it's many forms) has always had a place in religion. it's also clear that religious systems DO borrow concepts from one another (it's not always clear where the concepts originated but they do share).

i feel like i'm suddenly discussing evolution...

in the end, i think its interesting that (as Leo mentioned) the early church fathers acknowledged that many of these concepts pre-dated christianity.

40

Links between Jesus and other ancient Man-Gods

by doogie in

recently, at the prompting of another poster, i began to look into the similarities between jesus and other man-gods of ancient cultures.

i was shocked!

not so much by the minute details shared between the gospels and the stories of krishna, osiris, zoroaster, mithras, dionysus and others, but mainly because i had never heard of this before.. things like: being born of a virgin, espousing the redeeming power of baptism, turning water into wine at a wedding, having an entourage of 12 close followers, those 12 sharing a final meal with the god, instructing his followers to eat of his body and blood to benefit from his sacrifice (the blood usually symbolized by juice or wine), sacrificing his life by crucifixion on behalf of mankind, being dead for 3 days and then resurrected, he will return at some point to cleanse the world, and much more.. now, i know this is probably nothing new to most of you, but i was amazed.

doogie

hooberus-

thanks for the links. i'll have to look at them more in depth later, but so far i found these quotes interesting:

In spite of the fact that relevant scholarly consenus is unanimous that the "Jesus-myth" is incorrect, it continues to be promulgated on a popular level as though it were absolutely proven.

clearly, it's not. that's what makes this stuff difficult.

Greco-Roman historian Michael Grant, who certainly has no theological axe to grind, indicates that there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for a large number of famous pagan personages - yet no one would dare to argue their non-existence. Meier [Meie.MarJ, 23] notes that what we know about Alexander the Great could fit on only a few sheets of paper; yet no one doubts that Alexander existed.

i admittedly know very little about Alexander the Great. i guess i'll have to reassess my belief in him as a historical reality as well.

"I don't think the arguments in (Wells') book deserve detailed refutation."
"...he argues mainly from silence."
"...many (of his arguments) are incorrect, far too many to discuss in this space."

these are my favorite arguments.

this is why i started this thread. i'm having the most difficult time finding explanations for WHY the details found in the gospels appear to owe much to pagan traditions. at best, i'm finding paper after paper that discredits the opposition rather than the answering the issues.

40

Links between Jesus and other ancient Man-Gods

by doogie in

recently, at the prompting of another poster, i began to look into the similarities between jesus and other man-gods of ancient cultures.

i was shocked!

not so much by the minute details shared between the gospels and the stories of krishna, osiris, zoroaster, mithras, dionysus and others, but mainly because i had never heard of this before.. things like: being born of a virgin, espousing the redeeming power of baptism, turning water into wine at a wedding, having an entourage of 12 close followers, those 12 sharing a final meal with the god, instructing his followers to eat of his body and blood to benefit from his sacrifice (the blood usually symbolized by juice or wine), sacrificing his life by crucifixion on behalf of mankind, being dead for 3 days and then resurrected, he will return at some point to cleanse the world, and much more.. now, i know this is probably nothing new to most of you, but i was amazed.

doogie

You would think that in the year 2005, and with the advent of Quantum Physics and such, we would open our minds to much grander and extensive interpretations of our Source. It's as if we have come to define ourselves with our cherished little deities on a cellular level, and just can't shake it.

i agree. in the end, our new interpretations may be just as incorrect, but its still interesting that as a culture we still cling to the Man-God option rather than modifying or reinventing it.

40

Links between Jesus and other ancient Man-Gods

by doogie in

recently, at the prompting of another poster, i began to look into the similarities between jesus and other man-gods of ancient cultures.

i was shocked!

not so much by the minute details shared between the gospels and the stories of krishna, osiris, zoroaster, mithras, dionysus and others, but mainly because i had never heard of this before.. things like: being born of a virgin, espousing the redeeming power of baptism, turning water into wine at a wedding, having an entourage of 12 close followers, those 12 sharing a final meal with the god, instructing his followers to eat of his body and blood to benefit from his sacrifice (the blood usually symbolized by juice or wine), sacrificing his life by crucifixion on behalf of mankind, being dead for 3 days and then resurrected, he will return at some point to cleanse the world, and much more.. now, i know this is probably nothing new to most of you, but i was amazed.

doogie

PP-

the bigger picture, that is, the role of cultural and religious tradition in Christian origins.

They had to encounter these things when doing "research" to expose the pagan connections with holidays and Catholic dogma.

that is what i was thinking about. westernized society (religious or otherwise) owes a great deal more to the dreadful pagans than it'd like to believe.

40

Links between Jesus and other ancient Man-Gods

by doogie in

recently, at the prompting of another poster, i began to look into the similarities between jesus and other man-gods of ancient cultures.

i was shocked!

not so much by the minute details shared between the gospels and the stories of krishna, osiris, zoroaster, mithras, dionysus and others, but mainly because i had never heard of this before.. things like: being born of a virgin, espousing the redeeming power of baptism, turning water into wine at a wedding, having an entourage of 12 close followers, those 12 sharing a final meal with the god, instructing his followers to eat of his body and blood to benefit from his sacrifice (the blood usually symbolized by juice or wine), sacrificing his life by crucifixion on behalf of mankind, being dead for 3 days and then resurrected, he will return at some point to cleanse the world, and much more.. now, i know this is probably nothing new to most of you, but i was amazed.

doogie

IP-

thanks, that's kind of what i assumed.

has there ever been any acknowledgment by the WTS of these similarities? i don't have a WT-CD, but i would actually be surprised if they haven't commented on this.

40

Links between Jesus and other ancient Man-Gods

by doogie in

recently, at the prompting of another poster, i began to look into the similarities between jesus and other man-gods of ancient cultures.

i was shocked!

not so much by the minute details shared between the gospels and the stories of krishna, osiris, zoroaster, mithras, dionysus and others, but mainly because i had never heard of this before.. things like: being born of a virgin, espousing the redeeming power of baptism, turning water into wine at a wedding, having an entourage of 12 close followers, those 12 sharing a final meal with the god, instructing his followers to eat of his body and blood to benefit from his sacrifice (the blood usually symbolized by juice or wine), sacrificing his life by crucifixion on behalf of mankind, being dead for 3 days and then resurrected, he will return at some point to cleanse the world, and much more.. now, i know this is probably nothing new to most of you, but i was amazed.

doogie

Recently, at the prompting of another poster, I began to look into the similarities between Jesus and other man-gods of ancient cultures. I was shocked! Not so much by the minute details shared between the gospels and the stories of Krishna, Osiris, Zoroaster, Mithras, Dionysus and others, but mainly because I had never heard of this before.

Things like: being born of a virgin, espousing the redeeming power of baptism, turning water into wine at a wedding, having an entourage of 12 close followers, those 12 sharing a final meal with the god, instructing his followers to eat of his body and blood to benefit from his sacrifice (the blood usually symbolized by juice or wine), sacrificing his life by crucifixion on behalf of mankind, being dead for 3 days and then resurrected, he will return at some point to cleanse the world, and much more.

Now, I know this is probably nothing new to most of you, but I was amazed. Especially by the fact that these other man-god myths pre-dated the gospel Jesus by centuries and centuries.

But then I thought, how is this information reconciled by apologists? what explanation is given for these similarities? The only reasoning I can find is, "These man-gods were myth whereas Jesus was real. We know this because of the documented evidence of the gospels." Now, I know that there has to be a better explanation of these stories? existence than that, but I can?t find anything.

Like I said, I?ve only been looking into this subject for a little while so if anyone has further research on this I would REALLY appreciate it. thanks!

188

Men who lie with men.....

by cindykp in

jw
friends

1corinthians 6:9 men who lie with men will not inherit gods kingdom.

so i guess its ok for women to lie with women cause we're not mentioned in there!

lol

doogie

If the Christian faith was like some kind of club, society or union, which had rules for its members. Before joinig would you not check its rules out. To use a simple illustration, if you joined a golf club and ones of the rules was "no brown trousers allowed" or you will be thrown out the club. If you persistently turned up in brown trousers don't you thinnk that the club has the right to say that you are no longer a member.

that about sums it up.

15

The offer that the WTS has made to you

by Bluegrass Tom in

here is something to consider in wts speak:

it takes about five minutes of time, a page from an encyclopedia and some electrical impulses passing between the ears to recognize that jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 b.c.e.

with a little more thought (and some arithmetic), it can be realized that this means that the 70 years of desolation never happened.

doogie

trevor-

One of the most important dates upon which the Watchtower Society build their own dating system is 607 B.C.E. This is the date that Pastor Russell originally claimed Jerusalem was destroyed. The Society has never changed their mind on the accuracy of this inherited date.

not to nit-pick, but i think originally Russell claimed 606 BCE because they assumed a 0 year in their calculation. i'm not sure what year they technically changed it (someone else can probably shed further light on this) but as i recall, it was very subtle.

sorry, i dont mean to hijack...