Posts by Confession

3

Knocking director is gay

by gcc2k in

jw
friends

i'm not sure where this belongs, but i found it to be an interesting article:.

.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/05/14/findrelig.dtl&hw=jehovah&sn=001&sc=1000

Whoa... First, I didn't know this guy was from Saginaw, Michigan. I lived there for quite awhile; don't think I remember the last name. Second, in reading this article, I can't help but think his making this film might have been a way to build a kind of bridge back to his mother and former religion, considering he's gay and left the religion. Not that they'll fully accept him or his homosexuality, but that they'll at least appreciate the positive thing he did for "Jehovah's Organization."

There is nothing bad with having conviction and standing by your conviction. And there is nothing bad about you passionately telling your neighbor about what you believe. That's just free speech. What's bad is when you go around and hurt people, because you are trying to force them down a certain path.

If Joel can't see how this organization is 'hurting people by forcing them down a certain path,' he is either woefully misinformed (this doesn't seem to be the case) or is refusing to face the facts. Ask any of us who (unlike him) did get pressured into baptism what would happen if they didn't go down the WTS "path."

And so we need to find some kind of common ground where we don't have to be threatened by each other, where our religion can be strong in its faith and not feel like it has to legislate its beliefs because it feels threatened. Likewise, others need to be able to let religions be without trying to tear them down. I look at Jehovah's Witnesses as a good example of how it could work.

Mr. Engardio has zeal for people not "tearing down" religious authority structures. How does he feel about religious authority structures "tearing down" families? The interviewer himself can't seem to believe Engardio actually sees JWs as any sort of model of openness...

A model?
It's not a perfect model, but it is an example of how a religious group can retain its freedom to believe what it wants while allowing others outside the religion to take a different path.
That's how America is supposed to work. A religion should be able to believe what it wants, but people who choose not to be of that religion should be able to live the way they feel is best. And both should be treated equally under the Constitution.

Just what does he mean by 'allowing others to take a different path'? Well, in the case of those who won't become JWs, this "allowance" means preaching that they are condemned to everlasting death and as such are unfit for association. In the case of other religious organizations, this lovely, open-minded "allowance" means preaching that they are "fit for destruction" and "will be cut down and thrown into the fire." And, most importantly, in the families of JWs, this "allowance" means an unimaginable cutting off from families and entire communities if one decides to leave.

And, yes, people should be "able to live the way they feel is best." As long as they know they'll be threatened, humiliated, disfellowshipped and shunned... How this guy can see them as any type of positive model in such an area is stupefying.

5

Exposing psychological manipulation

by Ténébreux in

not sure if this has been discussed before (probably) but this is something that just occurred to me:.

religions and cults employ some very well documented psychological techniques to deceive, persuade and control people - logical fallacies, thought-reform, etc.

techniques which can be easily identified in action when one is aware that they exist.

Confession

...any detailed examination of exactly HOW cults persuade people to believe their falsehoods is conspicuously absent.

I believe that's because any detailed examination of such would demonstrate that, by any popular definition, they themselves are a cult. Why go there?

77

Does A School Yard Bully Attitude Take Over This Discussion Board?

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

does a school yard bully attitude take over this discussion board?growing up, i can recall such times when a rival would want to pick a fight .

with me and when we met, he would bring along two of his friends and i .

sometimes, i would knock their block off and sometimes, it was the other.

Confession

"Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage." --Winston Churchill

Anytime we separate ourselves into a group of like-minded persons, spending most all of our time with them, we frequently end up expressing our opinions as rational fact--and may (either intentionally or accidentally) mock those with whom we disagree. For some people this just comes naturally.

Scully, I so identify with your epiphany. I had one too, while an elder--but years before my exit, when something just struck me between the eyes: how incredibly arrogant and immature it was to shun (or even dislike) a JW for deciding they didn't believe it was The Truth anymore. Don't misunderstand... I very much still believed it to be The Truth. But I just had this incredible moment of awareness that all of us are simply human beings, and that we are not in the position to judge another human's honest opinion as evil. Again, even as a fully active and believing JW, I still thought, "Can't a person change his mind?" It was like a firm and sudden tug to the cerebral cortex.

16

To All Lurkers - Feel the LOVE........

by AK - Jeff in

when i first found this site i was overwhelmed by the diversity - jw's are not accustomed to diverse ideas and thought.. i was obligated by the vast volume of information that condemns the religion i had practiced for 4 decades - jw's are not accustomed to facts and logical argumentation that defies the official position[s], to begin forming my own opinions from what i saw here.. i was speechless when i read the similar posts about things that i could have written, things that bothered me for the longest time.. i was overjoyed to realize that i was not alone in the world in my decision to leave the religion.

yet - if what you had/have/want is the truth, nothing here is a danger to that.

if it is - then it was never truth to begin with.

Confession

As is often the case, Jeff, you 'kill me softly with your song.' This especially resonated with me...

I was impressed by those willing to defend the Watchtower, even though they hated the Watchtower, when facts did not support allegations against them. This was a significant impression for me. It convinced me that, although there are 'Watchtower Bashers' here, there was also deep character here, and integrity. I discovered that the motives were not what I thought they would be - that the motives were honest, often painfully deep seated, and amazingly similar to my own motives, though at first I did not recognize that too clearly.

15

Do You Agree With This Quote?

by Confession in

and, if so, why?.

"there is nothing that makes us feel so good as the idea that someone else is an evildoer.

" robert lynd (1879-1949).

Confession

Love your comments. Isn't it funny how I right away agreed with the quote myself? Let me try to explain what (I think) it means...

Imagine a six year old child who has not yet come to understand the common policy against ratting out ones friends. His mother has heard that some neighborhood kids have been found throwing little stones at passing cars, and she tells her son how bad this is and how he'll be disciplined if he takes part. He sees a neighbor friend doing it--and runs to his mother to let her know about it. He explains that he himself was invited to do it--but he staunchly refused. Furthermore, he tells his mother, he tried to prevent the other boy from this badness, but he just wouldn't listen. Tsk, tsk, tsk... The mother praises her son for his goodness and commends him for telling her about this boy. He basks in the glow of his "righteousness."

(The next one is a slight exaggeration of me when I was much younger...)

Imagine a white, young man who despises racism. Imagine also that, in his zeal to decry racism, he leaps at the opportunity to accuse others of it. In virtually any situation he sees that involves the interaction of races, he will loudly accuse people of being racists--although often this can be pure speculation and opportunism on his part. The truth is, he does hate racism. But, even more, he loves being seen as anti-racist. He feels this "proves" he is not a racist, since he, after all, is the one pointing out others as racists. This gives him warm satisfaction.

Imagine a pious, church-going, bible-reading woman. Around every corner she sees wickedness. The young neighbor girl who wears short skirts. The morning disc jockey who occasionally uses words like "crap" or expressions like, "Gosh darn it." The local grocer whose holiday signage spells "Christmas" as "Xmas." She speaks disdainfully of these ones, she writes letters to the editor, and she tries to get her friends to boycott the grocery store. She sees herself as a defender of "the Lord," steadfastly ferreting out the things she asserts to be sacrilegious. She derives a delicious gratification from this.

I don't believe the original quote posted is suggesting that we secretly like all evildoers. I believe it just identifies an interesting quirk often found in the human character. Sometimes we mark our own value by comparing ourselves to others. (Think of a husband who feels guilty for going to a strip club. His friend, however, actually has sex outside of marriage. The first man may then feel his behavior is okay, because at least he's not really cheating on his wife--like the other guy.)

Perhaps not all, but many people feel better about themselves when they are accusing others of something. In the moment that they point the finger of accusation at others, they feel virtuous. They themselves cannot be evil, since they are the ones uncovering evil.

Don't you see this?

15

Do You Agree With This Quote?

by Confession in

and, if so, why?.

"there is nothing that makes us feel so good as the idea that someone else is an evildoer.

" robert lynd (1879-1949).

Confession

And, if so, why?

"There is nothing that makes us feel so good as the idea that someone else is an evildoer." – Robert Lynd (1879-1949)

45

That Voice...My Story

by Confession in

why doesnt he just talk to me later?

i dont really talk about this much, but i just dont get it.

he seems confident that eventually ill understand him.

Confession

Hadn't noticed that this thread was recently revived. From time to time someone will PM me about it. So, for those of you who don't know much about me, here's my story. I wrote it while less than a year out of my Watchtower exit. Today I'd probably have put things differently, but I still enjoy reliving that fascinating process of awakening.

Much appreciation for your comments and well wishes,

Confession

48

Curious about what ExJW's Preach and Teach

by BEROEAN in

i've noticed many of you that have your own ministry.

i'm curious as to what doctrines you teach.

is it "jesus is love.

Confession

Beroean, nice to have you. I disagree with the critical manner of a few here. Then again "diversity of opinion" is (I believe) what makes this forum the best and longest-lived one of its kind.

There's something I've noticed about having been a JW--and still having JW family members: For some reason we have the belief that those who leave the organization become part of another religion. My mother has, in writings, often mentioned "the apostate group." When first coming to see the WTS wasn't what it claimed to be, I also thought I'd find more of a consensus here. Not so.

This forum is less a community of like-minded "brothers and sisters," and more a neighborhood of widely diverse thinkers. I'd say the experience of coming out of the WTS renders most disinterested in becoming part of another organized group. But, as you can see, lots of others definitely become full members of a variety of other religious denominations. Still others are wholly atheistic (or something similar.) The only thing that binds most of us? Our former (or current) attachment to a legalistic and authoritarian high pressure group.

For me the absolute beauty of leaving the Watchtower religion is in using my own mind, examining the facts for myself, and coming to my own conclusions as to what is right or wrong--rather than living by the ever-changing tenets of a group of men.

48

Curious about what ExJW's Preach and Teach

by BEROEAN in

i've noticed many of you that have your own ministry.

i'm curious as to what doctrines you teach.

is it "jesus is love.

Confession

Hey, I'm from Detroit! And it's mostly quite cold there...

166

Sixteen Child Sex Abuse Lawsuits against Jehovahs Witnesses Are Settled

by Dogpatch in

press release 5/10/07.

http://www.freeminds.org/history/16lawsuits.htm.

sixteen child sex abuse lawsuits against jehovahs witnesses are settled.

Confession

Don't you think when we read what you wrote it is clear that you are emotional because you know you are wrong?

Insightful comment. I was thinking something similar. It took me awhile to understand the WTS' culpability in this area too. You just don't know--and you don't know that you don't know... And the cognitive dissonance keeps bubbling up inside you.

Mad's position, as uninformed as we know it to be, is a very common reaction for most believing JWs. I can't believe you suspended him. This too seems emotional.