Posts by Confession

For me it was the subject of "confession to men" that got me to thinking. But it was reading Tom Cabeen's "Does God Work Through an Organization?" that did it for me. The tug to my cerebral cortex was intense. Anyone still struggling? I suggest you read it. Here's the link... "Does God Work Through an Organization?"

140

I have a theory. Please take my poll!

by changeling in

jw
friends

i'd like you all to tell me 2 or 3 things:.

1- were you raised a witness or not?.

2-if you were, was your family very "theocratic" or not so much?.

Confession

1. Yes

2. Very Theocratic

3. Agnostic

115

My Life as a 'Famous' Jehovah's Witness

by united states of nothing in

just let me start out by saying i am unable to give certain details of my life as i have learned very quickly this can cause a lot of problems.

i was born into the 'truth' as my mother had been studying with a few sisters on and off at a local congregation.

my father was never a jw and came in and out of my life for many years..to this day i do not give him much time.

Confession

I remember how concerned some JWs would get about whether or not someone was truly "of the anointed." Of course now it seems funny since I don't consider anyone to be "anointed." Some among us are especially sensitive to the idea that someone might be getting over on them. I appreciate you guys; I know you're looking out for us. But allow me to disagree please.

I don't find anything perfectly damning about his posts. Is he perhaps NOT "famous." Yes, perhaps.

Do you know for certain? No you don't.

Does it seem like he's unnecessarily "baiting" us into wondering about who he may be? Perhaps to you.

Until I become more certain of his possible deception, will I feel like a fool by contributing to this thread before then? No, I won't.

Would I feel like a complete idiot if he's telling the truth, while I've been loudly denying him? Yes, I would.

Can some decide not to contribute--while others choose to do so, without raising the ire of the former? I'd certainly think so.

115

My Life as a 'Famous' Jehovah's Witness

by united states of nothing in

just let me start out by saying i am unable to give certain details of my life as i have learned very quickly this can cause a lot of problems.

i was born into the 'truth' as my mother had been studying with a few sisters on and off at a local congregation.

my father was never a jw and came in and out of my life for many years..to this day i do not give him much time.

Confession

I think I understand the irritation. Consider: You decide to tell a story--but tell people you can't reveal the actual identity of those involved. Then they start guessing...and look to see how you respond. If you explain that their guesses were wrong...well, they just start guessing more. Eventually they're going to guess right, and you either have to lie, admit who the parties are, or refuse to answer while they try to divine something from your reaction.

That said, unless I'm very mistaken, there is no way this describes Lou Whitaker. My clear memory is that he was brought in by Chet Lemon while they both played for the Tigers, while this story explains he was "born into the truth." And, if memory serves, Lemon was not "born in" either.

So let's just end the guessing here. This guy seems nice enough. I'd like to hear his story, and aren't we mature enough to defer our interest in who it is? Thanks in advance.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

Confession

"My current stance is that I believe that Jehovah uses the organization to accomplish the preaching work and give us food at the proper time."

Okay. Can you identify the primary reasons why you believe this?

"When you look at the Scriptures it goes God-Jesus-Anointed, not God-Jesus-WT Bible & Tract Society INC."

The Scriptures? "3 But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God." Can you tell me why this "Scripture" makes no mention of the "Anointed" in this line of headship?

I noticed you wrote above that Jehovah uses the Watchtower Society to "give us food at the proper time." I know you must be aware that the scripture you reference is connected directly to the "faithful and discreet slave." Yet you (also above) distinguish sharply between the F&DS (anointed) and the WT Bible & Tract Society INC. So which is it? Who really is providing food at the proper time?

29

Get well, MISANTHROPIC !!!!

by Kudra in

jw
friends

.

this is a get well thread for our friend mis, she has the tummy flu and needs some cyber-lovin' from her friends at jwd!!

xoxo .

Confession

Sorry to hear, darlin'! Rest up.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

Confession

Hi YM... Let me be clear: I am NOT suggesting that Jehovah will hold you accountable for ANYTHING the WTS does--or has done. I'm turning the WTS' own reasoning on them. But I'm beginning to see the folly of that line of thought, since you clearly distinguish yourself as a JW who does not recognize the Society as being what they want to be recognized as. So, if you don't mind (and I'm sure you don't; you seem incredibly open,) I'm going to ask you to play advocate for the WTS.

You see the ordinary "sales path" (sorry, I'm in marketing) for JWs is this... They become intrigued by what the WTS is teaching. They become convinced that it might be "The Truth." While studying, they are taught that "Jehovah has always used an organization" in his dealings with humans. They accept this. They are further convinced that "what they believe" is of universal import--and that they must "take a stand." Since "Jehovah has always used an organization," and since immense and far-ranging issues are at stake, they come to what seems like a logical conclusion: that the Almighty God of the universe has chosen this organization, that He is working through it, and that they'd better align themselves with it if they expect to "get onto the Ark"--so to speak.

You have often mentioned your understanding of those who've been wronged by them. That's good of you to have such empathy. To be able to say, 'Look, I haven't been terribly wronged by these guys, but I've seen it happen to others, and it sucks. If you've been similarly treated, (shrug,) I don't blame you.' But I have to ask this: if you know people are being terribly wronged--and if you know that the WTS isn't all they claim to be--why are you still associating yourself with them?

Does it matter that the bad things are happening--but just not to you? Does it matter that the bad things aren't just "bad," but that the organization won't admit to (or attone for) them? If the answer is that it's not that easy to leave, I understand. But I think there's more to it than that, isn't there? Do you think that Jehovah is actually working through them? If you believe that, in the end, we shall all "stand before Jehovah" and that it's not about what organization we're attached to...why is it a good thing to continue as a member of this one? Why does it make sense to continue with them, knowing that you have to exercise such caution so as not to draw scrutiny?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful responses.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

Confession

In the September 8, 1987 Awake!, (pages 10, 11) the Watchtower Society makes the following appeal to members of other churches under the subheading: "If Your Church Fails to Act, Will You?”

“If, after making an honest investigation, you are less than pleased with what you see, do more than just complain. A journalist…logically concluded: 'Church members ... are responsible for what the church says and does.' So ask yourself: Am I willing to share responsibility for everything my church says and does? Can I really be proud of having all its members as spiritual brothers?”

So if one were to be following the Society's advice regarding displeasure with a religious organization, we should...

1) Complain (since it says we should do more than just complain, it suggests that complaining is the least we should do.)

2) Do more than just complain. (Write letters, speak to others? It sounds like their own words recommend activities that would get you accused of apostasy--only, of course, if it's aimed at the WTS. Doing it to other churches is proper.)

3) Recognize that we share responsibility for "everything" our church says and does. (I know other churches are "brown" too, but this speaks to your comment: "Now, do I think that it means that I myself will get judged because of the society's decisions? not at this point. I dont know, I dont think that would be fair...")

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

Confession

Hi yourmama... Good to have you here. First I wanted to comment on something you wrote to Nvrgnbk...

"you seem to imply that I am on a journey of some sort..."

I hope you can try to understand. By your expressions, you remind us so very much of ourselves. And, for many of us, it wasn't very long ago at all that we were saying the same sorts of things you are presently saying.

What strikes me the most is how different your words are from the Watchtower Society's. You, for instance, hold a personal opinion of what an "apostate" is; one different from theirs. You disagree with the Society's official position on allowing yourself to consider the views of those who oppose them. In the 80s (a time when you have said the literature was better than now) they wrote...

Now, what will you do if you are confronted with apostate teaching—subtle reasonings—claiming that what you believe as one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not the truth? For example, what will you do if you receive a letter or some literature, open it, and see right away that it is from an apostate? Will curiosity cause you to read it, just to see what he has to say? You may even reason: 'It won't affect me; I'm too strong in the truth. And, besides, if we have the truth, we have nothing to fear. The truth will stand the test.' In thinking this way, some have fed their minds upon apostate reasoning and have fallen prey to serious questioning and doubt.[Watchtower, March 15, 1986, pages 10-15]

Yet you write...

"I don't think there is anything the truth cannot stand up to."

Certainly I applaud you for your independent thinking, but I'm sure you must know such is strongly condemned by the Watchtower Society. In the January 15th, 1983 Watchtower, there were two articles that dealt precisely with this. Under the subheading, "Avoid Independent Thinking," they wrote...

How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the

counsel that is provided by God's visible organization.

So we see here (as in many other places) that the Society both condemns independent thinking among the flock--and speaks directly to your statement about missing "the memo that made suggestions from the society law." And this is by no means a new sort of policy that's popped up in recent years...

"The first essential for study is the right condition of mind and heart, appreciating that Jehovah grants understanding only to the meek, and not to the stiff-necked. If we have love for Jehovah and for the organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the Bible says, 'believe all things,' all the things that The Watchtower brings out…" [Qualified, 1955, page 156]

I know... There's a way you can navigate through such official positions--and still remain a member of the faith. But, as you have indicated, it involves a degree of caution: being careful what "type" of elder you talk to, avoiding certain sensitive issues, etc. Many of us did this too.

I note in your expressions an interest in explaining yourself--as if trying to help us understand there are different sorts of JWs. You should know that this is unnecessary; you are sharing this board with many people who were right there with you. There's little you can say that will help us understand JWs. We were publishers, pioneers, ministerial servants, elders and Bethelites. And all of the things you're saying right now...we were saying.

But then it happens... If you are person who uses his or her own mind, eventually you figure out that if you hold plenty of differing views, if you recognize the terrible things perpetrated (and not atoned for) by the WTS, if you recognize that what they write is, in fact, merely their own beliefs or "suggestions," you come to see that they are not what they purport to be. They are not the sole channel of communication from God to the planet. The religion they've created cannot be considered "The Truth."

So what's left? A community of friends who have become "captives of a concept." Yes there are many lovely people inside, but they're clinging to a belief that they have "The Truth" because of certain teachings about the Trinity, hellfire and immortality of the soul, and because they've been convinced that they have some type of remarkable, international brotherhood--when in fact the only thing remarkable about it is that it took some of us so long to wake up.

I appreciate the distinction you make between those who've been hurt by the organization and those who might be trying to "crush witnesses." Please consider this perspective. When a person decides they no longer believe in the WTS as the "sole channel," they do not usually have any malice. Indeed there was a time when a JW could leave with dignity, but that ended in the early 80s, when the Society voted to shun any former members who admitted no longer recognizing their organization as The Truth. With some minor vacillations here and there, they have instructed families to effectively cut off communication with such ones. Did those who leave want to create trouble? Certainly not. It was the Watchtower Society who decided they would not tolerate it, creating an adversarial relationship with any who dared not accept their authority.

Now I have never picketed an assembly, nor have I engaged in any similar activity. But I ask you? Which is worse? A religious hierarchy commanding adherents to cut off association and even communication with their beloved family members? Or a sad person, devastated by the loss of his family, publicly expressing grief and righteous indignation over having been abandoned?

Again, good to have you here.