behemot

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Posts by behemot

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  20

  1 Thessalonians 2:15: prejudice against the Jews?

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  1 thessalonians 2:15 tells about the jews that they "killed the lord jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not god, and are contrary to all men" (kjv; other versions translate "oppose everyone", "are hostile to all men", "oppose all mankind" etc.)..

  doesn't this statement reflect an anti-semitic attitude on the part of the writer?

  we shouldn't forget that such a view about the jews was commonplace among the pagans.

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  behemot

  Leo, thanx ... brilliantly put, as always.

  Behemot
• 
  20

  1 Thessalonians 2:15: prejudice against the Jews?

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  1 thessalonians 2:15 tells about the jews that they "killed the lord jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not god, and are contrary to all men" (kjv; other versions translate "oppose everyone", "are hostile to all men", "oppose all mankind" etc.)..

  doesn't this statement reflect an anti-semitic attitude on the part of the writer?

  we shouldn't forget that such a view about the jews was commonplace among the pagans.

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  behemot

  I'm not sure why you thought the book had only five chapters; it actually has 19. Perhaps you tried looking it up in an edition of the original Aramaic version of the Testament of Levi ?

  Leolaia ... I loked it up here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/fbe272.htm

  Anyway, thank you for your summary. Comprehensive as always.

  XJW4EWR:

  This does not follow logically. If a white person reports on some dastardly deed commited by another white person does that mean the reporter is anti-white?

  We're not talking here of someone reporting on some bad deed committed by another single person, but of someone making broad statements slandering a whole group of people and labelling them as haters of mankind. I see a difference here.

  Behemot
• 
  20

  1 Thessalonians 2:15: prejudice against the Jews?

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  1 thessalonians 2:15 tells about the jews that they "killed the lord jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not god, and are contrary to all men" (kjv; other versions translate "oppose everyone", "are hostile to all men", "oppose all mankind" etc.)..

  doesn't this statement reflect an anti-semitic attitude on the part of the writer?

  we shouldn't forget that such a view about the jews was commonplace among the pagans.

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  2. 
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  behemot

  Leolaia ... just a couple of questions on the references you mention:

  Tacitus , Annals 15.44, Juvenal, Satyricon 14.103-104 , Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historia 34-35.1.1-5, Josephus, Contra Apionem, 2.148, Antiquities 4.137-38, 8.117, 11.212, 13.245, 16.42

  Tacitus, Annals 15.44: doesn't it refer to Christians (not the Jews) as guilty of "hatred against mankind"?

  Juvenal, Satyricon: maybe you meant Satires? (Petronius is the author of Satyricon)

  Testament of Levi 6:11, 1 Thessalonians 2:16

  I tried to find out the quote from the Testament of Levi but I found out the book has only 5 (five) chapters. Can you please provide the text?

  Thanks, Behemot
• 
  20

  1 Thessalonians 2:15: prejudice against the Jews?

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  1 thessalonians 2:15 tells about the jews that they "killed the lord jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not god, and are contrary to all men" (kjv; other versions translate "oppose everyone", "are hostile to all men", "oppose all mankind" etc.)..

  doesn't this statement reflect an anti-semitic attitude on the part of the writer?

  we shouldn't forget that such a view about the jews was commonplace among the pagans.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  behemot

  Leolaia, you hit the nail on the head as usual. Thank you for the well informed piece of info.

  Behemot
• 
  20

  1 Thessalonians 2:15: prejudice against the Jews?

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  1 thessalonians 2:15 tells about the jews that they "killed the lord jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not god, and are contrary to all men" (kjv; other versions translate "oppose everyone", "are hostile to all men", "oppose all mankind" etc.)..

  doesn't this statement reflect an anti-semitic attitude on the part of the writer?

  we shouldn't forget that such a view about the jews was commonplace among the pagans.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  behemot

  Diaglott reads:

  1 Thessalonians 2:15 "of those also the Lord having killed Jesus and the prophets, and us persecuted, and God not pleasing,and to all men contrary"

  (from http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/bsl/Library/BIBLES/Diagltt/Diaglott.pdf)

  Behemot
• 
  20

  1 Thessalonians 2:15: prejudice against the Jews?

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  1 thessalonians 2:15 tells about the jews that they "killed the lord jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not god, and are contrary to all men" (kjv; other versions translate "oppose everyone", "are hostile to all men", "oppose all mankind" etc.)..

  doesn't this statement reflect an anti-semitic attitude on the part of the writer?

  we shouldn't forget that such a view about the jews was commonplace among the pagans.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  behemot

  1 Thessalonians 2:15 tells about the Jews that they "killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men" (KJV; other versions translate "oppose everyone", "are hostile to all men", "oppose all mankind" etc.).

  Doesn't this statement reflect an anti-semitic attitude on the part of the writer? We shouldn't forget that such a view about the Jews was commonplace among the pagans. For instance, the historian Tacitus wrote that the Jews " adversus omnis alios hostile odium" ("regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies" - Tacitus, Historiae, V, 5), an idea very similar to that expressed in the NT verse.

  It's noteworthy that the New World Translation tries to downplay this somehow embarassing statement by translating the verse to mean that the Jews "are against [the interests of] all men", where the words "the interests of" are obviously inserted and not in the original Greek.

  Behemot
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  8

  Albert Schweitzer and Roland de Vaux: advice needed

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i'm considering getting from the library albert schweitzer's the quest of the historical jesus.

  a critical study of its progress from reimarus to wrede (1906)and roland de vaux's ancient israel volume 1: social institutions (1958) and volume 2: religious institutions (1960).. i'm aware that biblical studies have gone a long way since these two (already classic) works were written, but i was wondering whether they are still worth reading or have become in the meantime completely outdated.. anybody read them?

  your advice welcome.. behemot.

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  behemot

  Leolaia,

  thanx for your advice. I always appreciate your opinion. Thanx also for the link, I downloaded some good stuff already (including Moffatt's Introduction).

  Behemot
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  10

  On the (apocryphal?) source of 1 Cor. 2:9 and more ...

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in 1 cor.

  2:9 paul states: "just as it is written: 'eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that god has prepared for those who love him".

  (nwt).

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  behemot

  In 1 Cor. 2:9 Paul states: "Just as it is written: 'Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him". (NWT)

  This statement poses a textual problem in that there is no exactly corresponding text in the OT from which Paul might be quoting. The WT claims that here Paul "seems to be combining the thoughts of Isaiah 52:15, 64:4 and 65:17" (Insight, vol. 2, box page 366).

  But, could it be that Paul was quoting from a source that was in later times to be expunged from the writings making up the official canon?

  The WT rules out this possibility when, referring to the "Apocrypha", it states that "none of the Chistian Bible writers quoted from these books". (Insight, vol. 1, page 121).

  But is this true? In the case of 1 Cor. 2:9 at least two possible candidates have been pointed to as the original source of Paul's quotation: the Gospel of Thomas and the Dialogue of the Saviour, which read as follows:

  Gospel of Thomas 17: "Jesus said: 'I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart.'"

  Dialogue of the Saviour (Nag Hammadi Codices III, 5 140,2-5): "The Lord said: 'You have asked me about a saying (...) which eye has not seen, nor have I have heard it, except from you ...'"

  Besides, in his commentary to 1 Corinthians, Ambrosiaster (author of a commentary on Paul's Epistles) claims that the quote comes from the Apocalypse of Elijah ("Hoc est scriptum in Apocalypsi Heliae in apocryphis"). Origen and Euthalius also make similar claims, but I didn't manage to locate in the text of the Apocalypse the exact quotation these commentators refer to (can someone help please?).

  Other examples of possible use of "apocryphal" sources by NT writers (that I'm aware of) are:

  Hebrews 1:3 (compare Wisdom of Solomon 7:25-26)

  Hebrews 11:35 (compare 2 Maccabees 7:1-15)

  James 1:19 (compare Ecclesiasticus 5:11)

  Judas vv. 14,15 (compare 1 Enoch 1:9)

  If you know other similar instances, please post them here.

  Behemot
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  8

  Albert Schweitzer and Roland de Vaux: advice needed

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i'm considering getting from the library albert schweitzer's the quest of the historical jesus.

  a critical study of its progress from reimarus to wrede (1906)and roland de vaux's ancient israel volume 1: social institutions (1958) and volume 2: religious institutions (1960).. i'm aware that biblical studies have gone a long way since these two (already classic) works were written, but i was wondering whether they are still worth reading or have become in the meantime completely outdated.. anybody read them?

  your advice welcome.. behemot.

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  behemot

  Peacefulpete,

  thanks for your reply. I knew already the website you pointed me to; and as to the books you recommend, I've read the one by Finkelstein and Siberman and the other one (W. Dever) is on my future reading list.

  Behemot
• 
  8

  Albert Schweitzer and Roland de Vaux: advice needed

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i'm considering getting from the library albert schweitzer's the quest of the historical jesus.

  a critical study of its progress from reimarus to wrede (1906)and roland de vaux's ancient israel volume 1: social institutions (1958) and volume 2: religious institutions (1960).. i'm aware that biblical studies have gone a long way since these two (already classic) works were written, but i was wondering whether they are still worth reading or have become in the meantime completely outdated.. anybody read them?

  your advice welcome.. behemot.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  behemot

  Hi,

  I'm considering getting from the library Albert Schweitzer's The Quest Of The Historical Jesus. A Critical Study Of Its Progress From Reimarus To Wrede (1906)and Roland de Vaux's Ancient Israel Volume 1: Social Institutions (1958) and Volume 2: Religious Institutions (1960).

  I'm aware that Biblical studies have gone a long way since these two (already classic) works were written, but I was wondering whether they are still worth reading or have become in the meantime completely outdated.

  Anybody read them? Your advice welcome.

  Behemot