barry

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Posts by barry

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  30

  question

  by larc in

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  question,.

  what is your favorite sandwich?

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  barry

  vegemite sandwiches arent bad

  Barry
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  3

  Adventism and the year day principle

  by barry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  after reading the excellent post by farkel i thought i may be able to contribute.. this principle [year day] is held as a biblical principle by adventists, jehovah's witnesses and the worldwide church of god.

  it is also rejected by most adventists scholars also administraters and members.. the nineth chapter of daniel is used by some to try to prove the existance of the [year day] as it is clamed that it foretells the comming of the messiah.

  so is the year day necessary here?

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  barry

  Neonmadman,
  The beleif in the Investigative is still the official position and held by those who would be considered traditional Adventists. The Evangelicals in the Church reject the investigative Judgementand has in the last 20 years been a hot topic at bible studies, a sure way to get into an arguement.

  The latest information I have is of Kai J Arasola the current president of East Finland's SDA comference wrote a doctoral dissertation from Uppsala University called '' The End of Historicism''. Arasola writes that the scolars of Adventism in Europe, America and around the world have long known. There is no biblical basis for 1844. Another Quote from a Scholar ''Very, very little is heard of 1844 from the pulpits...No theologians in our ranks comment on it only the unschooled.
  Barry
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  3

  Adventism and the year day principle

  by barry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  after reading the excellent post by farkel i thought i may be able to contribute.. this principle [year day] is held as a biblical principle by adventists, jehovah's witnesses and the worldwide church of god.

  it is also rejected by most adventists scholars also administraters and members.. the nineth chapter of daniel is used by some to try to prove the existance of the [year day] as it is clamed that it foretells the comming of the messiah.

  so is the year day necessary here?

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  barry

  After reading the excellent post by Farkel I thought I may be able to contribute.

  This principle [year day] is held as a biblical principle by Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Worldwide Church of God. It is also rejected by most Adventists scholars also administraters and members.

  The nineth chapter of Daniel is used by some to try to prove the existance of the [year day] as it is clamed that it foretells the comming of the Messiah. So is the year day necessary here? Most textbooks of bible hermeneutics do not even mention the possibility of a year day principle.

  Ok Daniels Seventy Weeks - Why Days Equal ''Years'' in this unique case before looking into whether Scripure teaches or supports the use of a Year-Day Principle, in this case nearly all Bible scholars agree that days do represent years. The days are presumed days of course as the prophecy doesnt actually use the word days it uses weeks and can also be translated 'sevens'.

  So why are the seventy weeks correctly interpreted as seventy weeks of years or 70 times 7 years?

  Daniel's audience would be familier with the three following idears.

  The first is the seventy -year captivity was a punishment [Jeremiah 25:4-11]
  The second is the concept of an original punishment being multiplied by seven[Leviticus 26:14-39]
  THe third concept is that of weeks of years [Leviticus]

  The fourth idear is that Daniel employed figurative language where it says in Daniel two that the third kindom will rule over the world. This is not true of any historical empire. In fact many scholars feel that the number seven is used symbolically in Daniel 3,4 and 9.

  Although the first three idears lead commentators to agree that seventy weeks of years is meant idear number four tells us we should not necessarily look for exactness any more than the furnace in Daniel 3 was heated exactly seven times hotter.

  So in this case of seventy weeks days do represent years [presumed days admittedly] and they do not because of a year-day principle but because of the above reasons.

  Application of the Year -Day Principle in the Interpretation of Scripture
  The principle is applied very unevenly. According to Adventists Daniel 8[2300 days], Daniel 7,12 and Revelation 12 [time and times and half a time] Revelation 11 and 13 [forty two months] Revelation 11 and 12 [1260 days] Daniel 12 [1290 days] and Daniel12[1335 days] In the JW understanding it is appied in Daniel 4 and 9. However there are many places where predictive prophecy is given , and number of days given and it is not applied.

  In some cases, when the rule is not applied the predictive prophecies are not in apocalyptic sections. these include;
  Jesus predicted he would be arrested in two days; Math12 - Jesus predicted he would be buried for three days Math 27-Jesus predicts his resurrection after 3 days.
  Jonah prediction of the overturning of Nineveh in forty days
  In three cases where predictive prophecies occur in apocalyptic the year day Adventists are themselves divided.

  Rev.2-Smyma is to suffer tribulation 10 days , some apply 10 years here
  Rev 11 The two witnesses are applied to the time religion was outlawed during the french revolution others apply it to 1260 years and the JWs apply it to the secretary and treasure of the WT society being jailed from 1914-18 from memory.
  Finally it is not applied to the thousand years of Revelation 20 if it was it would be 360,000 years.

  Two pragmatic Rules

  [1] When a predictive prophecy includes a stated number of days, and application of the year day principle would appear plausible to a significant percentage of people , the principle is applied.
  [2] When a predictive prophecy includes a stated number of days , but application of the principle would be viewed as silly, the principle is not applied. eg the buriel arrest and resurrection.

  Those who beleive in the principle often fail to apply it consistently and uniformly. They sometimes apply it to times not stated in days and do not apply it in cases where days is stated in a predictive prophecy.

  Barry
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  13

  Hi to all the Girl's and Boy's

  by Nute in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  officially been out of the organization since 1990 .... i have e-mailed some of you already .... a very nice group of individuals i must say.

  what does borg mean?

  i did rattle some cages with the last post by silientlamb, but i guess that's what it is all about listening to both the good and the bad.

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  barry

  Gday Nute,
  Someone in chat thought Borg = Bible organisation i dont know if he was joking or not.
  Barry
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  26

  1975????

  by jayhawk1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am too young to know what actually happened before and during 1975, but you know said this to me, and i would like some more information.. quote.

  are you completely ignorant of why many of jehovah's witnesses looked to the year 1975?

  do you think it was just something someone made up?

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  barry

  The theory the world is 6000 thousand years old is Archbishop Uushers idea he even calutated God started his creative work 9am monday morning as this is the time most people start the week.
  Barry
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  87

  Mother's Letter To Start Off The New Year...

  by silentlambs in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i received this letter from my mother over the weekend, it came with a card and a special note to my children.

  i plan to let them read it someday, not today..... silentlambs.

  december 20,2001 .

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  barry

  Dear Bill,
  From what Ive read here both youre Mum, Dad and you and youre family are all JWs. Bill you havent been Dfs or Da and you are not challenging any JW doctrines. You have a vast amount of agreement in that case. The only area of disagreement would then be the child abuse issue. Youre a great christian man Bill and the WT would only be better off if they were to tackle this terrible problem head on.
  I feel this is what you have to get through to youre Mum this bit about '' we will never agree on anything'' is just not right you are just as much a Jw as they are.
  I come from a religious community where there are traditionals, evangelicals and liberals and other smaller groups all going to the same church and all having respect the others point of view and Ive allways seen religious diversity in the same church it is hard for some people to take but thats the real world.
  Opinions can be wrong but love is never wrong
  Barry
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  9

  Just some thoughts on watchtower criticism

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is part of a letter i may send to a friend.. i'm starting to have some real problems over my stand in regard to the society, and i'm starting to get angery with people.. i will tell my story soon.its nothing different or special, i just what to get it of my chest.. anyway in my anger i have written this to a friend.the letter is not written in an angrey tone , it just may be counter-productive to send it.. in your letter the point was raised should i be critical of the society.

  this is in line with what the aug 1 2001 watchtower said pg.14 p 8 ...a mature christian ....does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbour private ideas when it comes to bible understanding.

  rather he has complete confidence in the truth as revealed by jehovah through his son jesus and the faithful and discrete slave.

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  barry

  Good point refiner and to add to that the position of the reformation is that the bible is sufficiently clear oh the fundamentals of the gospel together with the holy spirit in the beleivers life. The WT position is the Catholic doctrine of the teaching authority of the magisterium. In my own experiance the people i studied with wouldnt even look at books I showed them some of which agreed with what they were saying. Ive never seen anything like it before in my life grown adults frightened of my books .

  Hope im not too tough on them Barry
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  17

  The possibility of reform?

  by Norm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a quite interesting article on the possibility of reforming ones religion was printed in the february 1.

  1995 issue of the watchtower, which asked the following question: .

  "your religiona ship that should never be abandoned?.

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  barry

  Yes Hans kung Catholic rebel Ive read some of his stuff, he sounds more like a Protestant than a Catholic but they cant seem to get rid of him.
  Im from the Adventist church there are Traditionals, evangelicals and liberals there. The Traditionals beleiving in principle the same Historicist interpretation as the witnesses. The witnesses have 1914 the Adventist traditionals have 1844. Other Adventists from high up in the church to the ordinary members openly dissagree with doctrine they beleive is incorrect. Could there be a change in the WT? I like to think there could but i think it would be much harder than most churches to achieve and would be made harder if those wanting change continually leave.
  Barry
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  6

  Apostates WILL Be Resurrected. Proof!

  by Englishman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

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  englishman.. bring on the dancing girls!

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  barry

  Englishman,

  Your right all you need to post now is proof he is in fact Apostate.
  Barry
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  40

  At Which Table Are You Feeding?

  by YoYoMama in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  at which table are you feeding?.

  you cannot be partaking of the table of jehovah and the table of demons.1 corinthians 10:21.. these inspired words of the apostle paul show that two figurative tables are set before mankind.

  each table is identified by the kind of symbolic food placed upon it, and all of us are eating at one or the other.

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  barry

  Dear Yo Yo Mama,

  So just answer me whos table are you feeding from?