Posts by barry

16

Dishonest WTS version of "Presence"

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

dishonest wts version of ?presence?

it is found in strong?s ref.

rather, matthew used ?parousia?

barry

Thanks Amazing and Alan for this great thread, when I studied with the witnesses I made no sense of there teaching at all. As Metatron has said Jesus says he is present with us to the end of the age in Matthew.

The scripture the witnesses couldnt explain to me is.

1 Thessalonians 4- 13 to 18

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We beleive that Jesus died and rose again and so we beleive that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lords own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven. with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God. and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. NIV version

1 Doesnt sound like the writer is trying to convey invisibility to me.

2 It says that the living who are on earth at the time of of the second coming will be caught up with the resurrected ones together.

3 Scolar did these events take place in 1914?

11

Is there another religion...

by kibizzle in

that any of you know of that teaches everlasting life on earth and emphasizes world unity (aka :won't go to war against another nation so they don't kill any of their own)?

kib

barry

As allready mentioned here SDAs do beleive in the earth made new after the millenium.

Also traditionally SDAs have opposed war and have taken a concience objector position or have joined the military in non combat roles. However some do take combat roles beleiving in the just war principle.

Barry

2

I should take Sunday school classes

by Atilla in

tonight on the history channel i was watching a program about the book of revelation.

due to my wt backgrounds, i was told that the apostle john wrote this book, and had always assumed this to be true.

apparently there is great controversy in the scholary world as to who exactly wrote revelation with many thelogians saying point blank that some one, another john, but not the apostle who wrote the gospel account of john, wrote the book of revelation.

barry

Revelation was the last book to be accepted because the churches in the east beleived it wasnt written by john some people beleive it was written by one of his disciples.

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

barry

Scolar if you are present in my home you would be here. An invisible presents is not taught in scripture our lord assended into heaven visibly and said he would come again in like manner he went to heaven. After the ressurection our lord ate fish and said look see I am not a spirit but have flesh and bones. Barry

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

barry

Ive read with some interest the references to 1844 as SDAs still hold to that date but none beleive 1844 was the start of an invisible presence. After the failed date they describe it as the 'Great dissapointement' but still beleive in the visible comming of our Lord when every eye will see him.

SDAs in order to produce a face saving device have invented the 'investigative judgement' a hellish doctrine in which they beleive the world will be judged starting from the dead and at some unknown time the liveing will be judged and then christ will come. Many Adventists have challenged this doctrine early Adventists as well as some today used it to teach that perfection was possible in this life and so it has produced a very perfectionist legalistic religion. In fact it looks more like the council of Trent that protestant reformation theology.

Many Adventists totally reject the investigative judgement doctrine. Dr Desmond Ford is one such high profile Adventists who has taken issue with this doctrine part of his story is mentioned in Ray Franz book Crisis of conscience. Des still is a member of the church but was defrocked for taking a stand on 1844. Des still speaks to many adventists in seminars and books he has written and he runs an organisation called 'Good news unlimited''.

Imstead of haveing Appostates we have Fordites taken from Des Fords name we also have a lot of other 'ites' depending on our own preference of theology. Barry

21

Do you think Jesus would get disfellowshipped?

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

if jesus were a jw, do you think he would be disfellowshipped for his conduct?

barry

I heard a minister preach a sermon titled ' The scandal of the gospel' and yes I do beleive Jesus would have problems with self righteous religious people. As the bible says ' This man accepts sinners' . Barry

9

Hot Cross Buns

by barry in

jw
friends

as it is that time of the year, hot cross buns, easter eggs, bunny rabbits etc.

what is the wt teaching on this.

?

barry

As it is that time of the year, hot cross buns, easter eggs, bunny rabbits etc. What is the WT teaching on this.?

3

My letter to 7th Day Adventist Pastor

by Carmel in

april 4, 2004

pastor steve

dear pastor steve,

barry

Gday Carmel,

Im an SDA and I wouldnt bother to go to such a meeting. This meeting is designed to get new converts and as you say there is no question time. Better not to have people asking questions it may confuse new people.

Ive never heard 'yeah brother' I think that would have been 'Amen brother'

If you want to ask questions go to the sabbath school its a bit like the WT study but there will be a lot of free thinkers there. I argue with them about issues I feel are important but everyone there can have a say hell they even dissagree with there own churches doctrine at times.

6

The Adventist Movement

by SharonUT in

after study... i have concluded that the jw's are nothing more than another off-shoot of the adventist movement.

see below.. the adventist movement (millerites) was started by william miller (a lay baptist minister) in 1843 and that created 3 off-shots.

the advent christian church, the life & advent union, and the seventh-day adventists (which sprang the branch davidians).

barry

Im an SDA and I think I can add something here.

SDA beleive in a visible comming of christ so thats out.

The early Adventists were Arian some still are of that beleif but most now beleive the trinity doctrine. The Whites, Urih Smith were all Arian. When Martin and Barnhouse studied Adventism the were amazed that both Trinity and Arianism were being taught in official church publications and they allmost classified Adventism as a cult because of it.

Beleif in a year -day principle but the funny part here is it is applied to different prophecys in the two churches. Some Adventists have rejected such principles of interpretation.

Adults are baptised by full immersion .

Many Adventists take a stand against war just as the witnesses do. They enter the armed forces as non combatants. Some also join in active combat roles.

21

When did early church "fathers" first unequivocally write of Trinity?

by True North in

anyone know when the early church "fathers" first unequivocally wrote of the trinity?

how about when they first unequivocally wrote of the unitarian/arian viewpoint?

and when did one view versus the other first become an issue?

barry

I beleive part of the problem that ccomes up time and time again is the concept of developement of doctrine. Vincent of lerins said in the fifth centery 'christian doctrine is developed' just as a child grows into a man. That is the very example he used for eg the early christians had slaves later the idear was developed a christian haveing a slave was against christian principles was written by Augustine.

The doctrine of 'Justification by faith ' wasnt developed until the time of the Reformation in the 15th century so how can we not beleive the trinity developed in the forth century.

I think Arian a priest from Egypt put forth his idears in the fourth century.

The Nicean creed was a creed taken from a local creed. In fact during the first few centuries there were hundreds of creeds all with the same basic structure of father , son , holy spirit and other articals

A creed from the second century found during the last century says something like,

I beleive in God the father creator of the universe .

and in his son our lord

and in the holy spirit

and in the forgiveness of sins

and in the holy catholic church

Just as vincent of lerins wrote christian doctrine is developed, this looks just like the nicean creed in embrionic form.