Wow - Cofty did not deserve this. Seems to me to be hypocritical posts by those pretending to value 'constructive' dialogue.
Posts by Qcmbr
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226You atheist really annoyed me
by confusedandalone inwhen i first came to this site.
whenever i would try to talk about somethign from the bible that the jw's got wrong or reason on a scripture that had so much feeling you would stomp all over it.
talking about "flying spaghetti gods" and laugh at what seemed to be my expense and then leave the thread never to return and add any substance.
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Bitter apostates
by Laika inwitnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.
when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.
it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.
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Qcmbr
Cold Steel - I have read all this material many times. I used to teach random bits in Priesthood lessons when I was Elders Quorum president. I also published a daily email newsletter called the Elder's Quorum Message which I used to include snippets of these proofs. When I fully believed apologist sites like Jeff Lindsey's were staples on my spiritual diet. While I absolutely accept that one or two quotes from primary sources in the day do not a case make the number of correlating quotes ( some nothing to do with JS) do give a clearer picture of what treasure digging was ( the two main legendary drivers were Indian buried grave treasure and pirate treasure in particular Captain Kidd's.)
One of the Smith family's primary income sources during Joseph's early years, way before any supposed angelic visions, was pretending to know where these buried boxes of treasure were, they were steeped in treasure digging lore ( and traditional magic, they had several occult books and magical protections, seer stones etc.). Joseph used a seerstone as a child to take part in this treasure digging con and became adept at it such that he was hired more than once to act as the seer.
Does it not strike you as both too coincidental and odd that a conman pretending to find buried treasure that is - guarded by spirits , always must be in a box, must be approached ritualistically or it will be taken away by a spirit - actually gets directed to some real treasure, in a box, buried by the ancestors of the Indians, that must be retrieved ritualistically ( he had to go back on set dates) and when done improperly gets him shocked by the guardian spirit? This same conman exists in a place where multiple people are concurrently experiencing 'visitations' from god and or angels ( and publish those accounts prior to Joseph's).
Does it not ring alarm bells that he produces a book that contains place names that coincidentally match several local ones and two direct lifts ( including a spelling from that era) from Captain Kidd legends (Camorah and Moroni), a geography that matches his local geography, a plot that contains the same storyline as a fictional book recently printed and available to the main scribe, an inaccurate description of real American flora and fauna, farcical anachronisms, direct biblical quotes ( including , unique to that 1700s print bible, translation interpolations) , absolutely incorrect old English usage ( no real translation by scholars attempts to translate from one language into a former version of a current language), contains Greek names and words ( like Christ) that are absolutely out of place in a supposed Israelite production and then tries to sell the copyright to that book to make some cash?
Does it strike you as likely that this 'revelator' would tell no one, including family and co founders of the church, of his most import vision ( a direct visit to him as a 14 or 15 or 16 year old child depending upon which of the different 10 versions we use) and then suddenly tell everyone ( claiming that he was quite free in telling a random minister at the time) and then follows this pattern retroactively filling in details such as his miraculous baptism, the supposed restoration of the priesthoods ( try looking up the date for the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood)?
Finally , do no alarm bells ring, when this Book of Mormon, the 'most correct' book , containing the 'fullness of the gospel' turns out to not contain the fullness of the gospel so requiring the Doctrine and Covenants to restore the principles regarding the temple, after the atonement, the most important parts of the gospel ? This temple ceremony uses direct phrases and secret grasps from masonry ( a relatively modern secret society - 16 century if memory serves- fraternity set up by occult alchemist nobles) and then over time changes them to fit modern sensibilities?
If none of this screams fraud, con, scam or obvious fake then Cold Steel, I can only conclude you are standing right where I was several years ago;brainwashed so thoroughly by an admittedly beguiling and at times beautiful worldview. I hope one day your shelf breaks ( though it hurts severely - I spent several nights in shock and tears) and you awake from the siren song. When that happens I and others will be here , not to jeer and mock in triumphalism , but to offer a world weary hand of brotherly understanding.
Ask yourself when was the last time you ever saw a real priesthood miracle and from your list really justify how impressive it really is or whether this could have happened without any blessing occuring. Look around your home ward and honestly ask yourself if you personally believe you have the power to heal all the sick, ill, maimed and disabled ( mentally and physically) you see, and then ask yourself truly why you do not go and do it right now.
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Bitter apostates
by Laika inwitnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.
when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.
it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.
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Qcmbr
The shunning can be subtle:
I'm pulling this from a private forum I'm on (hope they don't mind - I've slightly sanitised it)
" My only local LDS friend (old lady in her x's) the same one she was told by her bishop last year she needed to be careful who she was friends with as it could affect her temple recommend. Well today I asked a favor, could I have a yard sale on her front lawn . She lives in town right off a busy main road I live out in the middle of no where.
She told me "No I'm sorry,can't let that happen, as I'm afraid members might come by and see it's you doing this, I can't be seen with you inless its a church activity or event".
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Bitter apostates
by Laika inwitnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.
when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.
it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.
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Qcmbr
did you get a chance to read the article?
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Bitter apostates
by Laika inwitnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.
when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.
it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.
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Qcmbr
Green Eggs and Ham is written with numerous chiastic forms.
Once you get a handle on what treasure digging was it all makes sense. http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V36N04_37.pdf (sorry iPad - hard to make clickable links)
The above article , using fully referenced sources, shows how treasure diggers ,in America , in that region and specifically the Smith family were often looking for Captain Kidd's buried treasure. The stories of Kidd that they were steeped in ( it is reported as a favourite of Joseph as a child) contains references to Comoros and Moroni.
The Book of Mormon is available online at lds.org. Anyone looking to see changing lds thought and the historical issues would also do well to look at mormonthink.com as well which is very approachable.
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Bitter apostates
by Laika inwitnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.
when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.
it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.
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Qcmbr
When you are within a worldview your ability to deconstruct that worldview is severely hampered. You are impressed by things like 8 mormon witnesses because they support your worldview but you will subconsciously dismiss any number of witnesses for events that disagree with your internalised truth. This way of thinking is how our brains work. Once we are emotionally invested we introduce staggering bias to our perception filters. Right now you literally cannot perceive the correct weight of the evidence against Mormonism. It is a similar problem to those trying to argue against evolution to preserve a creationist mythology.
Let me give you a neat little example in reference to something you frequently allude to - this Nahom. To you the presence of somewhere that has a similar name on the Arabian peninsula becomes resounding proof. The presence of a place called Comoros , east of Mozambique, with a capital of Moroni however , won't even raise a flicker of concern. As an observer it looks very much like someone choosing exotic names, slightly modifying them and then writing them. Modern day apologists then produce a straw man argument that nowhere on the coast of The Arabian peninsula would ever be expected to have a long standing river, trees for boats and ore for tools and when they find one that also shares the same letters as one of the many made up names used in the fictional account claim it is incredible proof. This is craziness. The whole story fails a basic reality check: we are ascribing ocean going boat building skills to a tiny family of farming based migrants ( if you have any experience in boat building you will know how many people and how much specialist material is needed to make a vessel , never mind one capable of crossing multiple oceans. It is well outside the resource availability, tool and skillets described in the BoM- the believers answer is always then to invoke magic. If you respond to this you will find yourself doing it!)
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Bitter apostates
by Laika inwitnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.
when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.
it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.
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Qcmbr
Cold - I feel we shall have to have this out on another thread, there are people reading this who may be swayed by your statments. Your committment is clear but you are willfully disregarding very basic and clear cut failure points that preclude Mormonism being other than a pious fraud. This weekend I shall endeavour to make a concise list of these for discussion.
The pedant in me must point out your comments on the Keys and note how your statement contains a contradiction regarding how many people have the keys.
Your notes on grammar seem odd in that you seem to ascribe much weight to the detail in the Book of Mormon at a minute level (the word 'is' , an error in the context cited, becomes ,for you, additional proof) but you completely miss the concept that the entire book betrays its construction by the constant, incorrect usage of old english forms - absolutely out of place in a translation - rendering entire sentences as contextual gibberish (a thread a while back jgnat posted an excellent deconstruction of the BoM from a linguistic POV.)
You cannot stand in judgment of those who post here, many of whom have escaped through great sacrifice, mental pain and cost a destructive cult when you yourself are part of a very elaborate, and effective cult that has robbed its people of 10% income per annum and is guilty of racism, sexism, torture, homophobia, murder, polygamy, polyandry, fraud, theft, secret practices and unfulfilled promises.
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Bitter apostates
by Laika inwitnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.
when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.
it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.
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Qcmbr
Cold - where you now stand I once stood, the reasoning you use echoes how I thought. It is a terrible waste of an intellect and this is the crime of faith. It makes fools of us all.
Religion is the description of a reality that exists only in the mind. Each imagined reality can be ranked on its regulatory cost, the arbitrary rules one must obey.
JWs impose much stricter intellectual rules than Mormons do which means JWs have less room to think in. A JW meeting is a simple learning by rote from a script process of indoctrination. JWs make some silly claims that science and history do not validate (1914, 6000 year earth etc,) but they don't make many so the cog dis shelf consists of mainly practical situations caused by the rules ( shunning, blood ban etc.) This is the strength and the weakness of the JW religion.
Mormonism is a different take on faith. Intellectually there is more latitude to think and speculate. The day to day rules are currently very positive and endearing. A Mormon meeting is a much more free wheeling affair with members making up their own presentation on a topic. Mormons make multiple silly claims that science and history do not validate ( Israelites in America, healing by Priesthood, ancient books translated etc.) but their day to day rules are generally pro society ( unless you are gay or an independent woman and formerly if you were black) so the cog dis shelf consists mainly of many historical issues (polygamy, Kirtland Bank, racism, Danites, Mountain Meadows etc.) This is the strength and weakness of the Mormon.
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Scriptural list of gods anger?
by iCeltic incan anyone point me in the right direction, a good descriptive list of gods anger, genocide, vengeance and general things that we would view as bad and the scriptures next to it to show where these things are in the bible?.
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Qcmbr
Flood
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Prayers that God answers. Any examples?
by punkofnice inwhen i believed in god i tried not to pray for anything selfish.. after a while i began to think that a lot of things i was asking my imaginary friend in the sky for were selfish for some reason.. i do not ever remember a single thing i prayed for ever being answered.
if there was the appearance of an answer it was because i did mental gymnastics to make it fit the delusion that god had actually answered me.
there was never an obvious message/answer from god.
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Qcmbr
I prayed fairly consistently to know the truth about god. I got an answer. It wasn't what I hoped for. In hindsight it was the only prayers that ever had actual real, useful answers. Thanks brain.