Personally I spend far less time thinking faithfully (maintaining a relationship with reality based on trust in a concept that is at odds with the observed physical world) which means my intellect can roam and explore reality without having to pretend it all has to conform with a supernatural , invisible world. My thoughts are my own and I have put aside the self induced insanity of making up alter egos for my internal dialogues. My experience of reality is much more authentic now that the religious theatre is finished and the costume of piety and reverance is removed. Am I cleverer now, no, just a little bit less gullible and better able to think clearly.
Posts by Qcmbr
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29IQ and Theism
by DJS inrob waugh yahoo!
news .religious people are less intelligent than non-believers, according to a new review of 63 scientific studies stretching back over decades.. .
a team led by miron zuckerman of the university of rochester found a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity in 53 out of 63 studies.
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Touchstones of reason failed by Mormonism
by Qcmbr insorry , i said i'd post this last week but i played pc games with my bro instead.
my bad.. simple basic errors in the mormon meme that are missed by active members.. history.
book of mormon purports to describe actual historical events most notably two huge civilisations on the americas , one of which is israelite.
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Qcmbr
If you feel like reading the transcript of the Swedish meeting that has shaken things up.
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Touchstones of reason failed by Mormonism
by Qcmbr insorry , i said i'd post this last week but i played pc games with my bro instead.
my bad.. simple basic errors in the mormon meme that are missed by active members.. history.
book of mormon purports to describe actual historical events most notably two huge civilisations on the americas , one of which is israelite.
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Qcmbr
You may be right. I've just never seen the LDS church taking so many hits and losing so many core members. I have several open discussions both socially and on facebook with still active members and most express a sense of bewilderment and are simply falling back to testimony statements ('I feel the spirit', 'I know its true' etc.) The level of discussion (in the 'old' days you never discussed any doubts) , the amount of information and the number of highly committed individuals leaving is unprecedented.
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Touchstones of reason failed by Mormonism
by Qcmbr insorry , i said i'd post this last week but i played pc games with my bro instead.
my bad.. simple basic errors in the mormon meme that are missed by active members.. history.
book of mormon purports to describe actual historical events most notably two huge civilisations on the americas , one of which is israelite.
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Qcmbr
Hans Mattsson was a big defection that has the community buzzing. Apparently something bigger is due October.
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Touchstones of reason failed by Mormonism
by Qcmbr insorry , i said i'd post this last week but i played pc games with my bro instead.
my bad.. simple basic errors in the mormon meme that are missed by active members.. history.
book of mormon purports to describe actual historical events most notably two huge civilisations on the americas , one of which is israelite.
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Qcmbr
I suspect we are seeing the moment before the implosion.
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Touchstones of reason failed by Mormonism
by Qcmbr insorry , i said i'd post this last week but i played pc games with my bro instead.
my bad.. simple basic errors in the mormon meme that are missed by active members.. history.
book of mormon purports to describe actual historical events most notably two huge civilisations on the americas , one of which is israelite.
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Qcmbr
Sorry , I said I'd post this last week but I played pc games with my bro instead. My bad.
Simple basic errors in the Mormon meme that are missed by active members.
- History. Book of Mormon purports to describe actual historical events most notably two huge civilisations on the Americas , one of which is Israelite. Small , insignificant elements - such as a possible location for a campsite - aside, all the events described in the book are refuted by archaeology, genetics, linguistics and geography.
- Fraud. The Book of Abraham purports to be a record written by Abraham using Egyptian. At least one fragment of the original exists and it, along with the printed facsimile are well known and translated standard funery texts. The words 'revealed' do not match the actual translation and the meanings ascribed are incorrect. The fabricated additional drawing shows an understandable lack of knowledge regarding Egyptian mythology.
- Polygamy and Polyandry. Joseph secretly married women, some of whom he threatened / bribed in private meetings, including at least one 14 year old but perhaps worst of all some women already married. This is inexcusable.
- Masonry. Masonry is nothing to do with any real workmen from Israelite temples. It is a relatively modern secret society with handshakes, aprons, initiations and blood oaths. Joseph became a mason. The temple ceremony he revealed is a shameless copy. This supposedly eternal ceremony has been radically altered multiple times within the last hundred years to fit with modern sensibilities ( removed blood oaths, nude bathing etc).
- Money. Church leaders die wealthy. Church gives less than 1% revenue to charitable causes. All top church leaders have all expenses paid, have travel, holidays, cars, homes, education, jobs ( lucrative jobs on boards of church businesses) and interest free loans courtesy of church. Church has built shopping centre costing more than all charitable donations ever used. Church runs hunting lodges, financial institutions, communications businesses etc. It has no need of tithing to support itself. It requires tithing to access the highest degree of heaven.
- Morality. Mormonism has been on the wrong side of major social immorality. Racism. Homophobia. Sexism. Mormonism supports immoral and irrational concepts such as killing your children / people if a voice in your tells you to. Genocidal war. Death for apostasy. Lying for the Lord ( being dishonest to Gentiles - in particular over polygamy but often used to avoid legal issues.) Electro shock aversion therapy.
- Stupidity. Quaker style moon inhabitants. Never going to reach moon. Adams alter. Greek Psalter incident. Kinder hook plates. Egyptian grammar and alphabet. Lamanite warrior burial mound. Cumorah is impossibly located. Immortal 3 Nephites. Garments offer physical protection. Tithing as fire insurance. No coke ( caffeinated drinks.) No beards. White shirts. No women in pants. No contraception. Sex only for procreation. Masturbation leads to homosexuality. Earth is 6000 years old. No evolution. Seer stones and revelation via stone in a hat.
- Reality. Mormonism purports to have actual revelation, visions, seers, prophecy, healing power, the gift of tongues etc. No one in the Mormon church heals anyone, ever ( a real healing would make national news) , no revelations are currently being received ( surely there are plenty of topics god would like to talk about), no one uses the gift of tongues , no prophecy occurs , so called prophets could not discern the Hoffman fraud and spent large sums to buy problematic forgeries, the members of the church are no different from everyone else ( they divorce, get ill, suffer bankruptcy just the same as everyone else.)
- The tide has turned. Church growth has been falling long term but, wherever the Internet is ( anonymous access to information and the ability to question) the church demographic is radically altering as fewer converts join and more teens leave. The church is aging. Dominos are falling ( Sweden is a very visible crack in the wall.) 10 years and it will be a broken force with increasingly fundamentalist strongholds unless it does a CoC, renounces crazy and descends into mainstream Christian mediocrity.
If a real church of a real god existed it would be involved in a very different set of challenges than those listed above.
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You atheist really annoyed me
by confusedandalone inwhen i first came to this site.
whenever i would try to talk about somethign from the bible that the jw's got wrong or reason on a scripture that had so much feeling you would stomp all over it.
talking about "flying spaghetti gods" and laugh at what seemed to be my expense and then leave the thread never to return and add any substance.
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Qcmbr
Wow - Cofty did not deserve this. Seems to me to be hypocritical posts by those pretending to value 'constructive' dialogue.
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Bitter apostates
by Laika inwitnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.
when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.
it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.
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Qcmbr
Cold Steel - I have read all this material many times. I used to teach random bits in Priesthood lessons when I was Elders Quorum president. I also published a daily email newsletter called the Elder's Quorum Message which I used to include snippets of these proofs. When I fully believed apologist sites like Jeff Lindsey's were staples on my spiritual diet. While I absolutely accept that one or two quotes from primary sources in the day do not a case make the number of correlating quotes ( some nothing to do with JS) do give a clearer picture of what treasure digging was ( the two main legendary drivers were Indian buried grave treasure and pirate treasure in particular Captain Kidd's.)
One of the Smith family's primary income sources during Joseph's early years, way before any supposed angelic visions, was pretending to know where these buried boxes of treasure were, they were steeped in treasure digging lore ( and traditional magic, they had several occult books and magical protections, seer stones etc.). Joseph used a seerstone as a child to take part in this treasure digging con and became adept at it such that he was hired more than once to act as the seer.
Does it not strike you as both too coincidental and odd that a conman pretending to find buried treasure that is - guarded by spirits , always must be in a box, must be approached ritualistically or it will be taken away by a spirit - actually gets directed to some real treasure, in a box, buried by the ancestors of the Indians, that must be retrieved ritualistically ( he had to go back on set dates) and when done improperly gets him shocked by the guardian spirit? This same conman exists in a place where multiple people are concurrently experiencing 'visitations' from god and or angels ( and publish those accounts prior to Joseph's).
Does it not ring alarm bells that he produces a book that contains place names that coincidentally match several local ones and two direct lifts ( including a spelling from that era) from Captain Kidd legends (Camorah and Moroni), a geography that matches his local geography, a plot that contains the same storyline as a fictional book recently printed and available to the main scribe, an inaccurate description of real American flora and fauna, farcical anachronisms, direct biblical quotes ( including , unique to that 1700s print bible, translation interpolations) , absolutely incorrect old English usage ( no real translation by scholars attempts to translate from one language into a former version of a current language), contains Greek names and words ( like Christ) that are absolutely out of place in a supposed Israelite production and then tries to sell the copyright to that book to make some cash?
Does it strike you as likely that this 'revelator' would tell no one, including family and co founders of the church, of his most import vision ( a direct visit to him as a 14 or 15 or 16 year old child depending upon which of the different 10 versions we use) and then suddenly tell everyone ( claiming that he was quite free in telling a random minister at the time) and then follows this pattern retroactively filling in details such as his miraculous baptism, the supposed restoration of the priesthoods ( try looking up the date for the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood)?
Finally , do no alarm bells ring, when this Book of Mormon, the 'most correct' book , containing the 'fullness of the gospel' turns out to not contain the fullness of the gospel so requiring the Doctrine and Covenants to restore the principles regarding the temple, after the atonement, the most important parts of the gospel ? This temple ceremony uses direct phrases and secret grasps from masonry ( a relatively modern secret society - 16 century if memory serves- fraternity set up by occult alchemist nobles) and then over time changes them to fit modern sensibilities?
If none of this screams fraud, con, scam or obvious fake then Cold Steel, I can only conclude you are standing right where I was several years ago;brainwashed so thoroughly by an admittedly beguiling and at times beautiful worldview. I hope one day your shelf breaks ( though it hurts severely - I spent several nights in shock and tears) and you awake from the siren song. When that happens I and others will be here , not to jeer and mock in triumphalism , but to offer a world weary hand of brotherly understanding.
Ask yourself when was the last time you ever saw a real priesthood miracle and from your list really justify how impressive it really is or whether this could have happened without any blessing occuring. Look around your home ward and honestly ask yourself if you personally believe you have the power to heal all the sick, ill, maimed and disabled ( mentally and physically) you see, and then ask yourself truly why you do not go and do it right now.
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Bitter apostates
by Laika inwitnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.
when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.
it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.
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Qcmbr
The shunning can be subtle:
I'm pulling this from a private forum I'm on (hope they don't mind - I've slightly sanitised it)
" My only local LDS friend (old lady in her x's) the same one she was told by her bishop last year she needed to be careful who she was friends with as it could affect her temple recommend. Well today I asked a favor, could I have a yard sale on her front lawn . She lives in town right off a busy main road I live out in the middle of no where.
She told me "No I'm sorry,can't let that happen, as I'm afraid members might come by and see it's you doing this, I can't be seen with you inless its a church activity or event".
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Bitter apostates
by Laika inwitnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.
when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.
it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.
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Qcmbr
did you get a chance to read the article?