Christian concepts of justice are immoral . They introduce the concept of an intermediary willing to pay the price of the transgressor simply by magically removing the payment cost. The intermediary pays the price by simply removing the debt but never paying for it. If i get punched in the nose by a xian they can obtain forgivenesness by a magic ritual ( prayer and or confessional plus potential ritualistic penance) non of which actually renders me, the victim, any justice but implies that instead I simply suck up the pain and render mercy. Very evil system that requires a human sacrifice to make it all 'work'. yuckyuckyuck.
Posts by Qcmbr
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340Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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139
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe inhas anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
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Qcmbr
All of these have been competently addressed countless times
...by Mormon apologists lol. Cold Steel - you do your homework from sources not related to FARMS! Trust me it will open your eyes - if you can see past the filters you have.
for interest please address the point that Joseph was a money digger prior to the visions and book of mormon story. Was this a fraudulent activity (looking in a hat at a seerstone, at certain astrological times of the year , telling people how to stand, when to talk, what way to dig in order not to disturb the spirit guarding the treasure that had been buried and 'cursed' so that it was 'slippery')? If this does not raise alarm bells then Cold Steel you have descended into the ridiculous. Joseph was a money digger and a seer way before he had any vision and this was attested by those who employed him. It is a little convenient that he actually then 'finds' some ancient artefacts, in a box, guarded by a spirit, that makes him ritualistically retrieve the contents (shocking him , as per money digging lore, when he tries to get them the wrong way) and then gets him to translate some metal plates (NOT gold - too heavy to run through the woods with!) using a seerstone in a hat (why bother with the plates at all!)
Stop and think. How likely is it that God would create a book like the Book of Mormon, replete with checkable factual flaws (windows, silk, wheels, elephants and so on), have someone translate it using magical techniques (head in a hat, seerstone, magic glasses in spectacles) , allow them to try and sell the copyright, allow someone to steal 1/6 of it so loosing that portion completely - just to teach one guy a lesson? When do your BS filters go off? Please, please take a reality check, go outside, look at the real world and shake away the cobwebs of magic thinking.
The supposed translation lifts heavily from the King James Bible (including real scholarly errors and also doctrinal points he later 'corrects' by inspiration!) and also from this book - http://archive.org/stream/firstbooknapole00gruagoog#page/n17/mode/2up and this one - http://archive.org/stream/latewarbetweenun00inhunt#page/n13/mode/2up.
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139
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe inhas anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
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Qcmbr
Cold Steel - no idea what your idea of a con man was: Joseph, started pretending to see buried treasure to get money out of gullible locals at a very young age (prior to his 'vision'),he wrote a book and tried to sell the copyright to make cash, started a bank and pretended it was backed by more silver than it really was (unsurprisingly it folded), had affairs with multiple women, some married and at least one with a 16 year old , adopted daughter and was shown many times to have no concept of transaltion (Egyptian alphabet, Greek psalter incident and the farcical Book of Abraham.)
Oh and btw the church doesn't agree with your robust defence of the dna issue. They've already modified the BoM to reduce its obvious error that the Nephites and Lamanites were the ancestors of the American Indians.
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21
A Religion of Assumptions
by Cold Steel inthe jehovah's witnesses are a strange cultural phenomenon and one that has always puzzled me.
members call it "the truth" and, more boldly, "jehovah's organization.
" but many of those on the outside remain dumbfounded.
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Qcmbr
Sorry Rawe I was never a JW, I came here out of fascination for JWs , I started to push Mormonism , got my ass handed to me , independently had a crisis of faith and examination of my faiths claims, I used this forum as a way to explore my own doubts and questions without hitting emotional blockers and now I'm an ex -Mormon. What this site did was reveal how similar the religions were in essence , how the members used the same thinking style to remain within the faith, how each had an inner language with words used in certain ways (all variations on this is the 'TRUTH') and how exiting members shared the same emotional turmoil, loss and self discovery.
As a Mormon I used to dream of uniting the two faiths as one, I was convinced that god gathered his people into various organisations to appeal to different personality types and that each had some truth ( Mormonism had it all of course) and was a useful stepping stone toward salvation. JWs I saw as people who wanted a more extreme form of legal structure, those who wanted to be given word by word directions.
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21
A Religion of Assumptions
by Cold Steel inthe jehovah's witnesses are a strange cultural phenomenon and one that has always puzzled me.
members call it "the truth" and, more boldly, "jehovah's organization.
" but many of those on the outside remain dumbfounded.
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Qcmbr
Most people are terribly insecure and subconsciously doubt their place in family and society. When someone stands up in public and speaks with conviction it is immensely persuasive. Mix that with religion and you will also attract people looking for their place in humanity. The JW, Mormon, Xian stories provide a narrative that at once excuses weaknesses , provides a heroic path to redemption (do x, stay the course, get to the magic kingdom for the reward) and gives each person a vital role to play upon which everything hangs. This whole structure requires a figurehead, someone to lead and give authority. The more inaccessible the authority the better and so god becomes a sock puppet for an earthly leadership that assumes proxy authority. The desire for leadership and direction in life is a very powerful mental force that appeals most to those who do not have much power over their life ( uneducated, poor , ill and emotionally exhausted.)
Cold Steel how do you feel about being led by a prophet who is mentally incapable?
Mormonism has suffered this a couple of times ( and is currently experiencing a leader experiencing severe mental degradation.)
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72
Did you ever have a supernatural experience?
by XPeterX inok i know some of you are going to mock me but i don't give a shit and you'd better get dafaq outta this thread if you don't beleive in this stuff.. .
so,you ever seen somethin strange?shadow people?felt cold spots?touched by something you can't see?beaten by an unseen force?heard voices/whispers/growls/screams etc?are you sure about it or was it just your imagination?you ever been into the occult?c'mon share your experiences and stories!personally i've never had an encounter with the other side..
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Qcmbr
I used to think I had been attacked by an evil spirit ( saw door open, dark shape shuffle across floor making dragging noise on carpet, bright red eyes, felt of pure evil, couldn't move, had to pray to free myself.) Sleep paralysis.
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
Similar stories exist within the Mormon world with regards to conversion from other points of view ( in my immediate experience I was part of the conversion process of a JW , a Satanist, two liberal atheists, a bunch of Catholics, two born agains and lots of agnostics ) , most of them related a change, a spiritual awakening, a spiritual witness ( which I shared for most of them and can verify as I also felt it) and a conviction that they had truth.
The logic you exercise Perry argues that Mormonism is true. This struggle to change and believe lends weight to the strength of the argument.
Except it doesn't. Our brains change their wiring slowly ( see how long it takes to learn something) but when a fundamental change occurs ( like falling in love, falling out of love, getting religion, losing religion, a death of a family member and so on) vast amounts of chemicals are released to speed up and facilitate the process. Emotions can see saw, thinking can vary from confusion through to painful clarity and the person you are changes. It is common to describe this process as difficult ( 'I still love him' , ' I didn't want to accept the evidence', 'I couldn't deny the Book of Mormon even though I wanted to') but that doesn't make it divine, right or special.
She ruins any credibility for me by admitting her boyfriend was about to dump her over her beliefs. I made an internal deal, if on telling my wife I no longer believed in Mormonism she wanted to leave me, that I would recant, tow the line and pretend to believe because losing my family was not a price I was willing to pay and I'd much rather play act than ruin relationships. People do incredible things for the people they love. Many Mormon baptisms mentioned above were 30 something women with children from absent fathers...
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32
When the death penalty should apply.
by smiddy inthese two guys that ran over a man and then hacked him to death , shown on cctv where their is absolutely no doubt as to their involvement ?
they should be taken out and shot , no trial ,end of story.and they admit it , trying to use an excuse of warfare or whatever .kill the bastards.. smiddy.
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Qcmbr
If we legalise institutional murder then have we not accepted that murder is an acceptable solution to problems (so condoning their original crime since they do not have recourse to institutions to solve their problem)? If we want to have laws that set standards of behaviour then they should not repeat the crime as a punishment. Do we teach a child not to be violent by smacking them?
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
Yes, people who have moved from atheism to belief also have great insight in this sort of discussion. There are very valid arguments to be made that a life lived too cynically is devoid of potential richness that religion and faith often offers.
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
So far I still think despite what she says Tec is just pretending to want some form of bridge in understanding since she refuses to acknowledge that the bridge in knowledge already exists ( many former believers become non believers and therefore know not only what some believers think about atheism but also what happens on the other side , what caused them to loose belief and therefore what they think about believers - critically what they think about their former self.) Tec is not qualified to make these supposed fallacies. It's as presumptuous as me , a former Mormon , making a thread about what JWs think about Mormons and then trying to lead that discussion as though I knew more than you.
Lisa , you talked about red flags, things that prompt strong responses and I think these are more telling about the relationships here.
- By all means put forward opinions but be prepared to back them up with more than just your imagination if you want your point to be discussed.
- If you have little more than faith to go on for a post then stating that at the same time goes a long way to defusing a tense situation.Hearing voices in your head is a variation on faith not rock solid evidence ( unless the voice gives us something novel and useful such as an instant cure for headaches!)
- When someone disagrees with a cherished belief it may feel like they are negating you, they aren't , separating self from belief allows a more dispassionate discussion . Some believers make the comment more about themselves than about the idea and the offences follow naturally.
- Recognise that as a believer the threads about belief are yours to derail or maintain. Normally , where a sincere question is asked, many people will go to great lengths to explain a fallacy, give a source of scholarly information , give a well thought out response etc. the flames occur when , despite answers a stonewall or whinge occurs. There is good grace in admitting new information has been presented and withdrawing to consider.
- Remember former believers understand those feelings of emotion, the thrill of faith, the allure of a loving community of like minded thinkers, some even know what it's like to hear voices, have thoughts that feel otherworldy and mystical and so on. Most non believers aren't there for casual, knee jerk reasons but have trodden further down a hard and painful path of confronting their perceptions with logic, evidence and intense introspection. Many of us are gutted by the lies and feel zealous about exposing them.