Qcmbr

Joined

• started 181 topics
• posted 3,488 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Qcmbr

• 
  139

  Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

  by rawe in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

  what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

  if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Qcmbr

  You really think your evidence against is better than my evidencefor

  Yes - that's why I was forced to confront reality despite wanting it all to be true. You don't know what your line is the sand is. With Joseph and the church you have no criteria for determining what is true or false. Right now you would struggle to articulate what would be too far, too ridiculous, too far fetched in the history of JS. This is where I was.

  Please feel free to compare the list of Book of Mormon animals

  Asses
  Cattle
  Cows
  Cummoms
  Cureloms
  Elephants
  Fish
  Game
  Goat
  Horses
  Oxen
  Serpents
  Sheep
  Swine
  Vultures

  with the indigenous animals of North and South America and see how many hits you get and ask yourself why Joseph didn't include any easy hits.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_American_mammals

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_of_North_America
• 
  139

  Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

  by rawe in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

  what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

  if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Qcmbr

  Cold -

  The same was said of Christ - I don't believe in that person as a divine being and the myth of Christ is awful to me. A cult is a cult. So agreed.

  The only 16-year old I know of was Helen Mar Kimball - you'll be glad of this additional info then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Alger http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/jsplural.htm You could argue that it wasn't sexual but then you'd have to argue that , since the sealing keys weren't given till later on, that Joseph was simply marrying pluraly with no celestial hope or promise. I can think of no rational reason why someone would simply marry additional women for no particular reason. To anyone not familiar with this modern mormons consider plural marriage to be synonymous with celestial marriage (a marriage performed by priesthood keys to seal multiple women to a single man to be wives for eternity) This is a salient point here because in Mormon History , when Jospeh 'married' Fanny the sealing keys had not been restored meaning that the marriage only had effect on earth and was simply a plural marriage - if it wasn't for sex what was it for? She was already his adopted daughter and the end result of this marriage was that as soon as Joseph's first wife, Emma, found out she chucked Fanny out of the family home.

  the people who visited the “altar” said it was not in one piece . - this isn't the point , the point is it would have been buried rather than neatly uncovered. Anyhow it was a simple example of Joseph making stuff up on the spot - I could mention Zelph and Onandagus but to what end? - they aren't even in the scriptures. His mother said the following:

  " During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelings, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them."

  Last one since I normally hate line by line rebuttals but this is a pretty fatal mormon fact and if it simply bounces off your mind without even a momentary pause then - shrugs - you never really wanted to know:

  Joseph writes a book full of copy errors, factual mistakes and impossibilities — in the style of a pious schoolbook from his youth — and then tries to sell it.

  Of what book are you speaking? Sounds like you’re copying and pasting from somewhere.

  Clearly I'm not copying and pasting a sentence of my own construction doh - I was referring to the Book of Mormon which Joseph tried to sell the copyright of with its impossible historical events, incorrect flora and fauna and anachronisms. I did post links to the books he lifted style and content from earlier in this thread but you missed them; I care enough about you to do your homework though: http://archive.org/stream/firstbooknapole00gruagoog#page/n17/mode/2up and this one - http://archive.org/stream/latewarbetweenun00inhunt#page/n13/mode/2up .
• 
  340

  Fallacies about Faith

  by tec in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  peace to you!.

  this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

  this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Qcmbr

  Here's an on topic idea to discuss:

  As evidenced by this thread, faith leads to very sophisticated metaphysical arguments to support or explain situations the secular world judges simply immoral.
• 
  139

  Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

  by rawe in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

  what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

  if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Qcmbr

  Cold - what information have you considered that is not supportive of Mormonism?

  No matter how impressive you think Mormon scholarly efforts are you must , if you think long and hard about it, wonder why non Mormon scholars disagree completely with ancient history of America as described by Joseph and his non Mormon contempories. Where Mormon scholars talk about real things ( like the dead sea scrolls) there is a vast agreement and support from all other educational bodies. To a believing Mormon this discrepancy can only be squared by imagining a vast , coordinated, secular conspiracy to discredit Mormonism by suppressing truth. Common sense tells us that the reason such organisations as the Smithsonian don't agree to Jaredite,Nephite and Lamanite existence is for far simpler and more honest reasons - no evidence whatsoever, no buildings, no remains, no records and no artefacts.

  • Joseph has sex with his adopted daughter (16 years old)
  • Joseph has sex with married women
  • Joseph drinks alcohol, owns businesses involved in alcohol production and sale all after his factually incorrect Word of Wisdom revelation
  • Joseph makes up tall tales regularly ( for example claiming a stone structure was actually Adam's altar but forgetting what a flood would do)
  • Joseph caught pretending to translate ( kinder hook, Greek psalter and in our day Book of Abraham)
  • Joseph writes a book full of copy errors , factual mistakes and impossibilities - in the style of a pious schoolbook from his youth - and then tries to sell it
  • Joseph tells people of supernatural occurrences many years after and gets his salient facts wrong many times ( confusing Nephi with Moroni, giving different divine responses to different questions to different people in the same 'First Vision')

  There has to be a point where you recognise a charismatic con man when you see him.
• 
  340

  Fallacies about Faith

  by tec in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  peace to you!.

  this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

  this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Qcmbr

  Joshua 7:10-15 - human sacrifice

  10 The Lord said to Joshua, “Stand up! What are you doing down on your face? 11 Israel has sinned; they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them to keep. They have taken some of the devoted things; they have stolen, they have lied, they have put them with their own possessions. 12 That is why the Israelites cannot stand against their enemies; they turn their backs and run because they have been made liable to destruction. I will not be with you anymore unless you destroy whatever among you is devoted to destruction.

  13 “Go, consecrate the people. Tell them, ‘Consecrate yourselves in preparation for tomorrow; for this is what the Lord , the God of Israel, says: There are devoted things among you, Israel. You cannot stand against your enemies until you remove them.

  14 “‘In the morning, present yourselves tribe by tribe. The tribe the Lord chooses shall come forward clan by clan; the clan the Lord chooses shall come forward family by family; and the family the Lord chooses shall come forward man by man. 15 Whoever is caught with the devoted things shall be destroyed by fire, along with all that belongs to him. He has violated the covenant of the Lord and has done an outrageous thing in Israel!’”
• 
  340

  Fallacies about Faith

  by tec in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  peace to you!.

  this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

  this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Qcmbr

  ...and we haven't even started on the flood where everyone save 8 died. That was not the fault of any human - it was an entirely supernatural event from start to finish. OT god loved to kill and was very good at it. He even got pissy when you try to stop his holy killing machine, teh Ark of teh Covenant, from falling onto the ground.

  He seems quite excited and prepared for the grand bloodletting at the end as well.When will this god get satisfied by all the millions of humans he sacrifices for his divine purposes?
• 
  340

  Fallacies about Faith

  by tec in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  peace to you!.

  this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

  this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Qcmbr

  Most of us can see what the story says, that you can't and are defending it is tragic. The OT record is replete with God murdering people, instituting blood sacrifices (animals mainly but at a pinch he was happy to take down opposing priests or cities), initiating genocides, inspiring blood obsessed scriptures and so on. The supposed culmination of all this blood letting was the human sacrifice of Jesus. Your god is evil. Your morals on this issue are flawed.
• 
  340

  Fallacies about Faith

  by tec in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  peace to you!.

  this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

  this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Qcmbr

  You don't find it disgusting that God would ask once. You don't find it disgusting that God would allow and accept a later sacrifice he could have stopped (really - how hard would it have been to get a goat to come out first?)

  Finally - you don't find it disgusting that the supposed price for your sins is a human sacrifice?

  Please never wonder why your moral standards on this matter are rejected out of hand (by me at least).
• 
  340

  Fallacies about Faith

  by tec in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  peace to you!.

  this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

  this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Qcmbr

  So what do you understand by Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah?

  Did God bother to stop him? Did God allow the sacrifice to complete - in His name?
• 
  340

  Fallacies about Faith

  by tec in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  peace to you!.

  this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

  this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Qcmbr

  Name another example after Abraham's test of faith

  Wasn't once enough? What being would even suggest such a disgusting concept even under the pretence of a test?

  but since you ask:

  Judges 11:29-40

  New International Version (NIV)

  29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord : “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord ’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

  32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

  34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.”

  36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord . Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”

  38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

  From this comes the Israelite tradition 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.