Ask them to describe why they believe. If they mention anything spiritual (e.g. God bore witness to me) just keep asking about that experience. The more you probe the weaker it will reveal itself to be. There is almost no point in debating theology but every point in asking sincere questions about their reason for belief. My greatest pauses for thought have always been when people asked me searching questions rather than told me things. As you flesh out the backstory of the missionary you can ask questions like , 'So you have given up 2 years of your life for this based upon x. What would you do if you knew it was wrong...? Can you go home? Would you go home? etc..
Posts by Qcmbr
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8So I clicked on the Mormon come-on advertisement to "Come chat about Jesus Christ"
by oppostate inso i clicked on the mormon come-on advertisement on the top, the right side and the bottom of the jwd page that invited me to "come chat about jesus christ".. i started a chat with brook and taiza and asked them why the subtitle of the book of mormon changed from "another gospel of jesus christ" to "another testament of jesus christ".. brooke told me it hadn't so i googled it and told them there's plenty of websites that refer to it that way and i had a very old copy with that subtitle on it.. so taiza says it's probably a copy by some break off group and not from them.. i told her the inside said from the "lds".
so they left the chat.. so i figured maybe there's a technical glitch and i shouldn't assume they just dropped me.. so i log on again and give my last name instead of my first name this time.. and hellen and catherine log into the channel.. i ask them again about the title change and they drop off the chat.. so i figured twice is very unlikely that they had a glitch, and i'm pretty sure they dropped me because they didn't like my question.. one more time, i'll give them one more try.. so i log on again, with my middle name this time.. brooke and jayne log on.. i type that i'd been chatting previously with brooke.. she types back that she's a different brooke.. so jayne starts asking if i read the book of mormon.. i say yes and i have a question about it.. so i ask my question about the "another gospel" to 'another testament" change.. she says that she does not recall ever hearing about that and what do i like about the book of mormon.. i then ask her about the "gospel" paul wrote about in corinthians.. she says it's the same as in the book of mormon.. i ask back that if the gospel is the "same" why call it another???
and i quote her galatians 1:8.. she says that it does not apply to the book of mormon since it is not different from the bible so therefore, it is not another good news.. but that is the subtitle of the book isn't it.. so she sends me a link to a two minute video by the lds telling of the finding of the tablets and the transcription from reformed egyptian to english by joseph smith.. i started questioning whether reformed egyptian was a real language.
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85
Mormons getting hollowed out: The tipping point has occurred.
by Qcmbr inever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.
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Qcmbr
I suspect the shunning mandate is the major difference. The Mormons were smug enough to actually think they were right and wouldn't need any further shackles. Now with the latest church admissions on hot topics the core members are either hunkering down into extra committment mode or leaving.
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85
Mormons getting hollowed out: The tipping point has occurred.
by Qcmbr inever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.
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Qcmbr
Additional Stats from UK for mormon collapse plus reddit fugures breakdown plus my ha'penneth:
- UK LDS church is leaking money and is being supported by US mother church.
- Average activity rate of members, calculated by tithing and observation, is ~11 - 17%
- Despite 1700 baptisms, I presume excluding baptisms of children of members, actual fugures decreased by 1000. This indicates the more considered step of name removal (most just fade); the total membership figures include convert baptisms and children of record baptisms so to actually decrease by 1000 means 1700+500 (made up - its higher) = 2200 ergo 3200 had their name removed or died - that indicates a drop in membership of 10 people per church unit in 1 year. Mainly hard core members opt for name removal (it actually means something to them and is worth the effort.) The figures reported absolutely hide a decrease in activity. The closure of operating church units and the lack of new buildings does not.
- 2014 effect of essays and further disaffections not yet in stats. Will be very interesting.
http://www.mormonfileleaks.com/finances.html
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2pibtd/lds_accounts_for_uk_in_2013_summary_in_comments/
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Religions helping hand in poverty.
by Gratefullyunstuck insomething i picked up and thought would sit nicely on here.
strangely, guess which organisation boast about their growth in these countries, you can imagine on the ministry, fat western pioneer 'can you imagine a life without hunger and suffering?
' joke!
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Qcmbr
The real solution to poverty is:
- reducing the population to the carrying capacity of the land + technology + resources.
- implementing equality laws that provide eqal rights to all people whether they be make or female, rich or poor.
- a free market where all have equal barriers to trade and equal opportunities to overcome those barriers (i.e. access to loans, technology and intellectual capacity.)
In all aspects Abrahamic religions have consistently worked in the completely opposite direction from fighting against family planning through to anti equality and unfair market conditions (e.g. taxation laws.)
It was never about charity - a charitable institution is only required when the system is fundamentally broken and is failing to allow people the chance to work themselves out of poverty.
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Mormon Church Founder had 33 wives
by designs inwe know russell, rutherford franz and knorr wer kooky but joseph smith takes the cake.. the salt lake tribune of all newspapers has run an article on the lds founder's 33 wives, most of whom were teenagers.. http://www.sltrib.com/news/173364-155/plural-smith-joseph-marriage-lds-says.
would you stay an lds after knowing this, how would you rationalize staying with this knowledge.. .
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Mormon Church Founder had 33 wives
by designs inwe know russell, rutherford franz and knorr wer kooky but joseph smith takes the cake.. the salt lake tribune of all newspapers has run an article on the lds founder's 33 wives, most of whom were teenagers.. http://www.sltrib.com/news/173364-155/plural-smith-joseph-marriage-lds-says.
would you stay an lds after knowing this, how would you rationalize staying with this knowledge.. .
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Qcmbr
Members are haemorrhaging. My old ward is down to 65 active members from a post -split high of 130(10 years ago) odd (105 when I left 5 years or so ago). One member visited this Sunday and we number crunched (he's almost out as well.)
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Can a religion claim: Only we have the truth?
by Kalos intruth is self-evident (things like: the whole is greater than its part ....).. truth is always right (things like: caring for the accident victim helplessly bleeding on the road ....).. claiming: only we have the truth is like claiming: only my university is useful.
history shows that many school/college drop-outs have made significant contributions to the society like many those who completed their education!
and on the contrary, many school/college drop-outs have made significant damage to the society like some of those who completed their education!
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Qcmbr
If a religion doesnt claim this then they have no internal integrity.
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27
Atheists and Anger...
by new hope and happiness inare you an angry atheist?.
personally i wish i could say anger is to strong a word, but from my point of view :-.
a)i am angry that religion teaches children to hate " worldly people" at least that was my experience ad a j.w.
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Qcmbr
I am many things and depending on circumstance each of those personality bits and pieces come to the fore. When I'm discussing religion , depending on context, I either reveal my atheist side ('I do not believe in god') or my anti-theist side ('I do not accept concept <x> because...'). Sometimes the topic under discussion / situation lends itself to various emotions and since I have left mormonism I no longer feel a salesman's duty to suppress emotional states for the religion's sake, in fact , as part of my new found authentic identify I accept natural states and try to use them rather than suppress them. When I feel anger (or disgust etc.) I can normally trace it to an indignation with a moral scenario (injustice, bullying etc..) and I now accept that anger can be 'righteous' and dare I say it - hate can also have a place. I am happy to own my hatred of concepts that once I had to incorporate into my mormon identity (patriarchalism and sometime disregard for life for example.)
tl:dr Sometimes I am an angry anti-theist; sometimes I am a joyful atheist. For everything there is a season.
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Qcmbr
Tips hat.
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27
Should the constitution be amended to make being and adherent of Islam a crime?
by confusedandalone insince isis is killing people in the middle east and apparently they are invaded the rest of the earth with their hateful beliefs should we as americans take the steps necessary to amend the constitution to say something along the lines of .
congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion except in regards to islam, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof except in regards to islam; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble except in regards to islam, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.. .
thoughts?
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Qcmbr
So we are left with you either trolling (in which case well played) or monologuing an inconsistent vent against <person|country|concept> (in which case my advice is to chill out , have your say with a bit of tact and then enjoy people sharing their views.)