I am saying that the apostles did worship and keep the commandments.
The apostles got baptised, prayed regularly, met together to eat the bread and partake the wine, they organised churches. They showed their faith by their works. What on earth do you think Jesus was saying when He said - except a man be born of the water and of the spirit he can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God?
I don't think there is any mileage in removing the commandments and sacraments and then claiming that you have faith left - faith without works is dead being alone. Faith is obedience to what we have been asked to do, not discarding with abandon any structure or ordinance. On the flip side if you live the commandments and have not the spirit nor are truly converted its the same, works without faith is dead.
Which part of the commandments that LDS live did the apostles not live?
Baptism, gift of Holy Ghost given by priesthood, sacrament(bread and wine), washing feet of apostles, sabbath observance, prayer, tithing / consecration?
I guess my point is - is it possible to claim that you fulfill - 'if ye love me keep my commandments' and be a christian if you don't keep the commandments. If the answer is no then the commandments and the sacraments are required of a christian if the answer is that its possible to love God but not live any of the commandments then I guess we are all saved no matter what we do as long as we love God - no need for repentance.
Yes God is your Daddy whatever you do but when my kids don't do what I say I send them to their room.
Posts by Qcmbr
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74Real Christians.....
by Honesty in1. were among the first to respond to the tsunami of 2004 and hurricane katrina with food, water, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc.
and provided relief efforts to every person they came in contact with regardless of religious beliefs.. 2. point to jesus as the only source of true happiness in today's world of uncertainty.
3. utilise 'worldly' holidays to focus attention on god's love for mankind.. 4. welcome you in no matter how many tattoos or body piercings you adorn your body with.. 5. pray for everything and at a moment's notice.
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Qcmbr
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74
Real Christians.....
by Honesty in1. were among the first to respond to the tsunami of 2004 and hurricane katrina with food, water, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc.
and provided relief efforts to every person they came in contact with regardless of religious beliefs.. 2. point to jesus as the only source of true happiness in today's world of uncertainty.
3. utilise 'worldly' holidays to focus attention on god's love for mankind.. 4. welcome you in no matter how many tattoos or body piercings you adorn your body with.. 5. pray for everything and at a moment's notice.
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Qcmbr
LT - obsfuscation through rhetoric - not fair matey.
We're on the same side!
As a christian it is incumbent on each of us to have a desire for all people to avoid whatever we define as hell -
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I've met lots of christians who claimed that there was no need for any of the sacraments etc.., no need for structure all that was needed was being born-again in the spirit and thereafter they were saved. The thief on the cross was used very frequently to illustrate this instantaneous single point in time - the'saved' moment. I'm just worried that it's not that simple. Once we discount the commandments / the sacraments / obedience and replace it with grace without effort I wonder what we are left with.
PS I'm not saying that we are saved by works!! -
74
Real Christians.....
by Honesty in1. were among the first to respond to the tsunami of 2004 and hurricane katrina with food, water, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc.
and provided relief efforts to every person they came in contact with regardless of religious beliefs.. 2. point to jesus as the only source of true happiness in today's world of uncertainty.
3. utilise 'worldly' holidays to focus attention on god's love for mankind.. 4. welcome you in no matter how many tattoos or body piercings you adorn your body with.. 5. pray for everything and at a moment's notice.
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Qcmbr
LT I agree that if the thief was a christian AND that Jesus was saying 'you are saved' then your point almost stands. Since we know very very little about the thief let's just play with a few scenarios:
1/ He was christian and had performed all the sacraments. His theft was minor and Jesus forgave him on the cross. This does not suggest that to be a christian just requires a confession of His name.
2/ He was not a christian (formally) but was converted by Jesus at some point during the cruxifiction. This is when the definition of what Jesus said to him becomes important. Clearly Jesus didn't go to heaven so where is paradise? If the thief was with Jesus in paradise and Jesus was teaching disobedient spirits in the spirit prison then it again argues against a 'no need for the sacraments ' approach since it must be possible to accept Jesus on the other side (no need for preaching otherwise) and to repent or change. Paradise must be a place where the good and the bad, christian and non-christian go. Jesus' words to the thief then become a token of comfort (ie we are going somewhere better) rather than 'all that stuff I said about needing baptism - I didn't really mean it.'
3/ He was not a christian nor ever intended to be so. He was merely sympathising with the innocent Jesus. Same point as 2.
4/ Paradise = heaven. Your point stands, we have no need of a priesthood, organisation, sacraments all we need to do is confess Jesus and no matter what we've done were saved. Either which way it puts fundamentalists in a strong position (not that that's an arguement for being a fundamentalist.)
Its important to at least recognise that paradise might not be heaven and that using the thief on the cross to negate the need for performance and obedience is dangerous at best as a means of suggesting that confession is all that is required to be a christian. I just think that there is more to being a christian.
My take on it is that we are looking at the wrong end of the spectrum. The bare minimum required to be a christian is obedience to the commandments - including all the sacraments where possible. When we do that confessing the name of Jesus will come naturally and we will be filled with the Spirit not the other way round. -
74
Real Christians.....
by Honesty in1. were among the first to respond to the tsunami of 2004 and hurricane katrina with food, water, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc.
and provided relief efforts to every person they came in contact with regardless of religious beliefs.. 2. point to jesus as the only source of true happiness in today's world of uncertainty.
3. utilise 'worldly' holidays to focus attention on god's love for mankind.. 4. welcome you in no matter how many tattoos or body piercings you adorn your body with.. 5. pray for everything and at a moment's notice.
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Qcmbr
Fully agree Jaffa - see my beautifully written random musings thread - I'm just defining why the thief on the cross is not necessarily an excuse to avoid the 'sacraments' (of course it could be !) I'm just filling in the counter 'legalistic' idea. No I really am off to bed.
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74
Real Christians.....
by Honesty in1. were among the first to respond to the tsunami of 2004 and hurricane katrina with food, water, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc.
and provided relief efforts to every person they came in contact with regardless of religious beliefs.. 2. point to jesus as the only source of true happiness in today's world of uncertainty.
3. utilise 'worldly' holidays to focus attention on god's love for mankind.. 4. welcome you in no matter how many tattoos or body piercings you adorn your body with.. 5. pray for everything and at a moment's notice.
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Qcmbr
did you do the sheep thing 'cos I said woolly? :)
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74
Real Christians.....
by Honesty in1. were among the first to respond to the tsunami of 2004 and hurricane katrina with food, water, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc.
and provided relief efforts to every person they came in contact with regardless of religious beliefs.. 2. point to jesus as the only source of true happiness in today's world of uncertainty.
3. utilise 'worldly' holidays to focus attention on god's love for mankind.. 4. welcome you in no matter how many tattoos or body piercings you adorn your body with.. 5. pray for everything and at a moment's notice.
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Qcmbr
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Cor 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
So where did Jesus go 'today'?
John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
1 Peter
18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 ¶ The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Strong suggestion that paradise is not heaven but a holding place between the resurrection and death. A place where the preaching work continues? If the preaching continues then what of earthly ordinances?
1st Cor 15:
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
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29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Do we need to do this work for the dead? Just ideas:) I gotta go to bed:( -
74
Real Christians.....
by Honesty in1. were among the first to respond to the tsunami of 2004 and hurricane katrina with food, water, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc.
and provided relief efforts to every person they came in contact with regardless of religious beliefs.. 2. point to jesus as the only source of true happiness in today's world of uncertainty.
3. utilise 'worldly' holidays to focus attention on god's love for mankind.. 4. welcome you in no matter how many tattoos or body piercings you adorn your body with.. 5. pray for everything and at a moment's notice.
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Qcmbr
I'm being a pain I know. I think that the idea is nice - if you are filled with Love you'll do the right thing all the time. I just think that maybe that's a bit wooly.
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74
Real Christians.....
by Honesty in1. were among the first to respond to the tsunami of 2004 and hurricane katrina with food, water, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc.
and provided relief efforts to every person they came in contact with regardless of religious beliefs.. 2. point to jesus as the only source of true happiness in today's world of uncertainty.
3. utilise 'worldly' holidays to focus attention on god's love for mankind.. 4. welcome you in no matter how many tattoos or body piercings you adorn your body with.. 5. pray for everything and at a moment's notice.
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Qcmbr
What things?
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74
Real Christians.....
by Honesty in1. were among the first to respond to the tsunami of 2004 and hurricane katrina with food, water, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc.
and provided relief efforts to every person they came in contact with regardless of religious beliefs.. 2. point to jesus as the only source of true happiness in today's world of uncertainty.
3. utilise 'worldly' holidays to focus attention on god's love for mankind.. 4. welcome you in no matter how many tattoos or body piercings you adorn your body with.. 5. pray for everything and at a moment's notice.
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Qcmbr
Hi jgnat - I would never categorise you as an imposter - I figure if you are trying to do God's word then that's the best you can do - if your doing the opposite then your an imposter. Let me give you one example that crys out to me:
When a person claims to be a Christian and then abuses kids / beats up a spouse / rapes etc.. case in point the priests of various faiths who abuse kids - not really a christian despite all the 'worldy' credentials and the proper clobber. -
74
Real Christians.....
by Honesty in1. were among the first to respond to the tsunami of 2004 and hurricane katrina with food, water, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc.
and provided relief efforts to every person they came in contact with regardless of religious beliefs.. 2. point to jesus as the only source of true happiness in today's world of uncertainty.
3. utilise 'worldly' holidays to focus attention on god's love for mankind.. 4. welcome you in no matter how many tattoos or body piercings you adorn your body with.. 5. pray for everything and at a moment's notice.
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Qcmbr
Its definately an interesting thing - what are the boundaries of Christianity. When do we cross those and become something else.
Thief on the cross.
'Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise' - I guess I have to ask you what you think that means?
If Paradise is Heaven then you have a very strong point. If it isn't then you don't. I'll tell you my answer after you tell me yours hehe.