Posts by Qcmbr

40

The Nature of God

by sabastious in

i know that judaism and christianity are strongly self professed monotheistic religions.

yet, i wonder how they can so definitively say this when the word they chose to use as the deity in the beginning of their holy scripture is a plural.

genesis 1:1, and all of genesis chapter 1, uses the word "elohim" which is the plural form of "eloah" which is the prolonged form of "el.

Qcmbr

Sab - What do you mean it is fallacious? It is not a lie. Leapt not to your conclusion before your argument - 'tis bad form.

Which one of these Gods do you wish to claim as the original and authentic and which a copy or imaginary creation akin to the imaginary paleo-american gods (or do you claim those as well!?)

Enlil (Sumerian) co-creator of humans then tiring of their noise sender of a destroying flood which one man , Utnapishtim, survived with the help of another God Ea/Enki (symbol the double headed snake - considerd the master shaper of the world.).

El (Levantine God) married to Asherah and considered father of the gods and creator of creatures, son named Ba'al (symbol for both : bull)

Yam (son of El - one of the Elohim), God of the water.

Teshub (Hurrian)- god of the weather, described as carrying a triple thunderbolt.

Ra (Egyptian) - god of the Sun, creator of life (spoken into existence by his secret words).

When two different ideas and gods got merged (Elohim - many gods and Yahweh single god) you get very obvious contradictions and purely mystical interpretations as the plain words simply contradict. We have two Genesis accounts, two Golden Calf stories with the ten commandments mixed in, two David and Goliaths, two flood stories, a global flood killing all but Noah then a few generations later Giants and so on. It, the books of the bible, are so inconsistent that trying to draw a straight line through teh narrative fails and clearly the poor attempts to mash multiple stories and multiple Gods into one god and then by the NT a further effort to cram Jehovah into Christ burst at the seams many times. Modern day westernised Christians then go back and add another God on top of all this and start to describe the Jesus they expect would walk these streets (the one who is against slavery, likes women's equality and thinks gays are OK).

40

The Nature of God

by sabastious in

i know that judaism and christianity are strongly self professed monotheistic religions.

yet, i wonder how they can so definitively say this when the word they chose to use as the deity in the beginning of their holy scripture is a plural.

genesis 1:1, and all of genesis chapter 1, uses the word "elohim" which is the plural form of "eloah" which is the prolonged form of "el.

Qcmbr

Just some examples:

(Proverbs 22:17-18):"Incline thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, And apply thine heart to my doctrine; For it is pleasant if thou keep them in thy belly, that they may be established together upon thy lips"

(Amenemope, ch. 1):"Give thine ear, and hear what I say, And apply thine heart to apprehend; It is good for thee to place them in thine heart, let them rest in the casket of thy belly; That they may act as a peg upon thy tongue" [49]

(Proverbs 22:22):"Rob not the poor, for he is poor, neither oppress (or crush) the lowly in the gate."

(Amenemope, ch. 2):"Beware of robbing the poor, and oppressing the afflicted." [49]

(Proverbs 22:24-5): "Do not befriend the man of anger, Nor go with a wrathful man, Lest thou learn his ways and take a snare for thy soul."

(Amenemope, ch. 10): "Associate not with a passionate man, Nor approach him for conversation; Leap not to cleave to such an one; That terror carry thee not away." [49]

(Proverbs 22:29):"[if you] You see a man quick in his work, before kings will he stand, before cravens, he will not stand."

(Amenemope, ch. 30):"A scribe who is skillful in his business findeth worthy to be a courtier" [49]

(Proverbs 23:1):"When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, Consider diligently what is before thee; And put a knife to thy throat, If thou be a man given to appetite. Be not desirous of his dainties, for they are breads of falsehood."

(Amenemope, ch. 23): "Eat not bread in the presence of a ruler, And lunge not forward(?) with thy mouth before a governor(?). When thou art replenished with that to which thou has no right, It is only a delight to thy spittle. Look upon the dish that is before thee, And let that (alone) supply thy need." [49] (see above)

(Proverbs 23:4-5):"Toil not to become rich, And cease from dishonest gain; For wealth maketh to itself wings, Like an eagle that flieth heavenwards"

(Amenemope, ch. 7):"Toil not after riches; If stolen goods are brought to thee, they remain not over night with thee. They have made themselves wings like geese. And have flown into the heavens." [49]

(Proverbs 14:7):"Speak not in the hearing of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of thy words"

(Amenemope, ch. 21):"Empty not thine inmost soul to everyone, nor spoil (thereby) thine influence" [49]

(Proverbs 23:10): "Remove not the widows landmark; And enter not into the field of the fatherless."

(Amenemope, ch. 6): "Remove not the landmark from the bounds of the field...and violate not the widows boundary" [49]

(Proverbs 23:12):"Apply thine heart unto instruction and thine ears to the words of knowledge"

(Amenemope, ch. 1):"Give thine ears, hear the words that are said, give thine heart to interpret them." [49]

40

The Nature of God

by sabastious in

i know that judaism and christianity are strongly self professed monotheistic religions.

yet, i wonder how they can so definitively say this when the word they chose to use as the deity in the beginning of their holy scripture is a plural.

genesis 1:1, and all of genesis chapter 1, uses the word "elohim" which is the plural form of "eloah" which is the prolonged form of "el.

Qcmbr

..except that the Torah is derived from multiple human sources and is not divine in origin.

40

The Nature of God

by sabastious in

i know that judaism and christianity are strongly self professed monotheistic religions.

yet, i wonder how they can so definitively say this when the word they chose to use as the deity in the beginning of their holy scripture is a plural.

genesis 1:1, and all of genesis chapter 1, uses the word "elohim" which is the plural form of "eloah" which is the prolonged form of "el.

Qcmbr

sab - by what standard do you elevate the gods of the ancient semitic tribes to the creator as described by Roman orthodox christianity?

40

The Nature of God

by sabastious in

i know that judaism and christianity are strongly self professed monotheistic religions.

yet, i wonder how they can so definitively say this when the word they chose to use as the deity in the beginning of their holy scripture is a plural.

genesis 1:1, and all of genesis chapter 1, uses the word "elohim" which is the plural form of "eloah" which is the prolonged form of "el.

Qcmbr

That's what happens when you steal another religion's gods and pass them off as your own.

452

Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest in

in a discussion with some other dear ones, the question was asked as to what such ones put their faith in.

in response to one comment that"one can't function without faith," another disagreed, stating ones can, that "many do so every day... the ones who have trust" (in things like the sun rising in the east versus the west).

that trust extended to "faith" based "on nature and the natural order of things.

Qcmbr

Ah ok Char - I've heard of backsliding in the pentacostal world.

39

Are We Living At The End Of An Age?

by metatron in

jw
friends

i hardly know what else to call it.

i have felt many emotions in my life and anxiety, many times but this is different.. it's a sense of the impending, a build up of pressure like a wall of water behind a cracking dam.

when does it break?.

Qcmbr

We are at a moment as momentous as the moment life moved from see to land, when the first hominid made repeatable marks and when mammals outcompeted dinosaurs. We have enough power to destroy ourselves, we have enough vestiges of -often theistic- tribalism to stop a one world government and the universal acquisition of knowledge and we have the Internet. Either we destroy ourselves in war or we globalise and become a secular powerhouse moving towards a type 1 civilisation.

100

My mother passed away this morning...

by Tatiana in

jw
friends

for any old-school ex-jws here that remember my many posts about my abusive jw mother and my sister committing suicide because of it...she passed away this morning because she began to bleed out and refused a transfusion.

she had been in the hospital for a month.

it appears she suffered a stroke and wasn't found by the brothers & sisters for three days (they missed her at the meetings).

Qcmbr

Awful experience. Thanks for sharing. If you have any emotional ire left you may wish to follow the advice here and seek justice however, it's a lot of extra pain in a dreadful situation and there is also honour in closing the chapter with a goodbye at the graveside and then getting on with living your life as best you can as a testament that terrible treatment by the deceased and the living will not dictate how you will respond to and share yourself with the world.

452

Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest in

in a discussion with some other dear ones, the question was asked as to what such ones put their faith in.

in response to one comment that"one can't function without faith," another disagreed, stating ones can, that "many do so every day... the ones who have trust" (in things like the sun rising in the east versus the west).

that trust extended to "faith" based "on nature and the natural order of things.

Qcmbr

I'm more stumbled by Krishna. He's bl**dly blue. In fact I'm stumbled by all kinds of utter religious garbage. You can barely take a step before someone pops up to tell you some confusing, subjective and always made up concept that is of zero use but is always some form of social sorting ( with the teacher taking preeminence.) Reject them all, be stumbled by faith based woo and recognise that when it's tough walking through the cowpats that the answer isn't 'try harder' it's 'get out of the field'.

Does anyone but a JW naturally use the term 'stumbled' ?

56

A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...

by cedars in

glancing through the feb 2013 "public" watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.. here is the pdf download link.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.

it's interesting how, in the story, the young man's jw aunt and uncle switch him from mormonism to the jw faith using third-party material (the nov 8, 1995 awake!

article), and he ends up becoming a jw after confirming on the official mormon website that the claims in the awake!

Qcmbr

If you wanted to be purely mercenary and compare the life effects of being LDS to JW you might be tempted to be LDS based upon the wider family support ( normally excellent youth support ) , women's organisation , singles efforts and the more hopeful nature of LDS theology ( almost zero Armageddon and end times discussion , low focus on bible memorisation for debate purposes and a more confident place in the world - less of a persecution complex.) The modern LDS church has become a desirable place for faith and family based believers but it was not always so. Just as JWs have sacrificed many of the community based life of the members ( good food at conventions, birthdays, Christmas, large gatherings etc.) and replaced these with more 'purity' based concepts so the LDS church is swinging the other way. During the 70s the LDS church got caught up in a wave of end time talk and became much stricter ( my mum wouldn't drink coke or buy sweets called wine gums in case she became addicted to caffeine or got a taste for alcohol by taste association ) especially regarding sex and music ( reaction as well to the era!) but it's gradually winding back those elements to a more 'do what you want in the bedroom' approach rather than 'sex only for kids and force yourself to find it icky while doing it' default.

Tithing is a big put off but again , for the services provided, it's not too bad and some people , once they've given up tea, coffee, alcohol and cigarettes might even come out on top. With the LDS welfare net thrown in ( you can get your bills paid and shopping bought while you struggle - humiliating though ) and the free labour you get ( meals when you are sick , missionaries to help dig your garden and someone normally has a van to help you move house) it's possibly a net gain.

People are of course unique and different and just like lovers that which attracts and the straws that break the camel's back are different. I knew one old guy join the JWs from our congregation due to loneliness (neglect and cliques are still rampant in LDS world despite best efforts to avoid them ) and a deaf guy found the JW deaf program more useful to our naive efforts ( though he thought JW teaching was bonkers) , but I baptised one exJW myself and had another join our church. The latter mentioned how difficult it was to leave the JWs because she would be shunned. Her family have indeed cut her out of their lives. It seems the barriers to JW to LDS conversion are much higher.

There is a tsunami of intellectual disaffection within the LDS church right now that is breaking it from within. It is so blatantly untrue ( historically) that increasingly the core members admit they stay because even if wrong its still a very safe and fulfilling lifestyle and to be fair the people, when they aren't being dogmatic preachers , are pretty awesome.

I suspect the JWs are going to suffer the same problem offset by the level of intellectual maturity they have coupled with Internet access ( so the Westernised portion will die off followed in a few decades by developing world stagnation and then shrinkage.)

Intellectual deconversion raises obvious barriers to future conversion in other faiths.