Posts by Qcmbr

21

A Religion of Assumptions

by Cold Steel in

the jehovah's witnesses are a strange cultural phenomenon and one that has always puzzled me.

members call it "the truth" and, more boldly, "jehovah's organization.

" but many of those on the outside remain dumbfounded.

Sorry Rawe I was never a JW, I came here out of fascination for JWs , I started to push Mormonism , got my ass handed to me , independently had a crisis of faith and examination of my faiths claims, I used this forum as a way to explore my own doubts and questions without hitting emotional blockers and now I'm an ex -Mormon. What this site did was reveal how similar the religions were in essence , how the members used the same thinking style to remain within the faith, how each had an inner language with words used in certain ways (all variations on this is the 'TRUTH') and how exiting members shared the same emotional turmoil, loss and self discovery.

As a Mormon I used to dream of uniting the two faiths as one, I was convinced that god gathered his people into various organisations to appeal to different personality types and that each had some truth ( Mormonism had it all of course) and was a useful stepping stone toward salvation. JWs I saw as people who wanted a more extreme form of legal structure, those who wanted to be given word by word directions.

21

A Religion of Assumptions

by Cold Steel in

the jehovah's witnesses are a strange cultural phenomenon and one that has always puzzled me.

members call it "the truth" and, more boldly, "jehovah's organization.

" but many of those on the outside remain dumbfounded.

Qcmbr

Most people are terribly insecure and subconsciously doubt their place in family and society. When someone stands up in public and speaks with conviction it is immensely persuasive. Mix that with religion and you will also attract people looking for their place in humanity. The JW, Mormon, Xian stories provide a narrative that at once excuses weaknesses , provides a heroic path to redemption (do x, stay the course, get to the magic kingdom for the reward) and gives each person a vital role to play upon which everything hangs. This whole structure requires a figurehead, someone to lead and give authority. The more inaccessible the authority the better and so god becomes a sock puppet for an earthly leadership that assumes proxy authority. The desire for leadership and direction in life is a very powerful mental force that appeals most to those who do not have much power over their life ( uneducated, poor , ill and emotionally exhausted.)

Cold Steel how do you feel about being led by a prophet who is mentally incapable?

Mormonism has suffered this a couple of times ( and is currently experiencing a leader experiencing severe mental degradation.)

72

Did you ever have a supernatural experience?

by XPeterX in

jw
friends

ok i know some of you are going to mock me but i don't give a shit and you'd better get dafaq outta this thread if you don't beleive in this stuff.. .

so,you ever seen somethin strange?shadow people?felt cold spots?touched by something you can't see?beaten by an unseen force?heard voices/whispers/growls/screams etc?are you sure about it or was it just your imagination?you ever been into the occult?c'mon share your experiences and stories!personally i've never had an encounter with the other side..

Qcmbr

I used to think I had been attacked by an evil spirit ( saw door open, dark shape shuffle across floor making dragging noise on carpet, bright red eyes, felt of pure evil, couldn't move, had to pray to free myself.) Sleep paralysis.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

Qcmbr

Similar stories exist within the Mormon world with regards to conversion from other points of view ( in my immediate experience I was part of the conversion process of a JW , a Satanist, two liberal atheists, a bunch of Catholics, two born agains and lots of agnostics ) , most of them related a change, a spiritual awakening, a spiritual witness ( which I shared for most of them and can verify as I also felt it) and a conviction that they had truth.

The logic you exercise Perry argues that Mormonism is true. This struggle to change and believe lends weight to the strength of the argument.

Except it doesn't. Our brains change their wiring slowly ( see how long it takes to learn something) but when a fundamental change occurs ( like falling in love, falling out of love, getting religion, losing religion, a death of a family member and so on) vast amounts of chemicals are released to speed up and facilitate the process. Emotions can see saw, thinking can vary from confusion through to painful clarity and the person you are changes. It is common to describe this process as difficult ( 'I still love him' , ' I didn't want to accept the evidence', 'I couldn't deny the Book of Mormon even though I wanted to') but that doesn't make it divine, right or special.

She ruins any credibility for me by admitting her boyfriend was about to dump her over her beliefs. I made an internal deal, if on telling my wife I no longer believed in Mormonism she wanted to leave me, that I would recant, tow the line and pretend to believe because losing my family was not a price I was willing to pay and I'd much rather play act than ruin relationships. People do incredible things for the people they love. Many Mormon baptisms mentioned above were 30 something women with children from absent fathers...

32

When the death penalty should apply.

by smiddy in

these two guys that ran over a man and then hacked him to death , shown on cctv where their is absolutely no doubt as to their involvement ?

they should be taken out and shot , no trial ,end of story.and they admit it , trying to use an excuse of warfare or whatever .kill the bastards.. smiddy.

Qcmbr

If we legalise institutional murder then have we not accepted that murder is an acceptable solution to problems (so condoning their original crime since they do not have recourse to institutions to solve their problem)? If we want to have laws that set standards of behaviour then they should not repeat the crime as a punishment. Do we teach a child not to be violent by smacking them?

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

Qcmbr

Yes, people who have moved from atheism to belief also have great insight in this sort of discussion. There are very valid arguments to be made that a life lived too cynically is devoid of potential richness that religion and faith often offers.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

Qcmbr

So far I still think despite what she says Tec is just pretending to want some form of bridge in understanding since she refuses to acknowledge that the bridge in knowledge already exists ( many former believers become non believers and therefore know not only what some believers think about atheism but also what happens on the other side , what caused them to loose belief and therefore what they think about believers - critically what they think about their former self.) Tec is not qualified to make these supposed fallacies. It's as presumptuous as me , a former Mormon , making a thread about what JWs think about Mormons and then trying to lead that discussion as though I knew more than you.

Lisa , you talked about red flags, things that prompt strong responses and I think these are more telling about the relationships here.

By all means put forward opinions but be prepared to back them up with more than just your imagination if you want your point to be discussed.
If you have little more than faith to go on for a post then stating that at the same time goes a long way to defusing a tense situation.Hearing voices in your head is a variation on faith not rock solid evidence ( unless the voice gives us something novel and useful such as an instant cure for headaches!)
When someone disagrees with a cherished belief it may feel like they are negating you, they aren't , separating self from belief allows a more dispassionate discussion . Some believers make the comment more about themselves than about the idea and the offences follow naturally.
Recognise that as a believer the threads about belief are yours to derail or maintain. Normally , where a sincere question is asked, many people will go to great lengths to explain a fallacy, give a source of scholarly information , give a well thought out response etc. the flames occur when , despite answers a stonewall or whinge occurs. There is good grace in admitting new information has been presented and withdrawing to consider.
Remember former believers understand those feelings of emotion, the thrill of faith, the allure of a loving community of like minded thinkers, some even know what it's like to hear voices, have thoughts that feel otherworldy and mystical and so on. Most non believers aren't there for casual, knee jerk reasons but have trodden further down a hard and painful path of confronting their perceptions with logic, evidence and intense introspection. Many of us are gutted by the lies and feel zealous about exposing them.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

Qcmbr

Well I'm confused. Is this a thread about what atheists think about theists or is it a thread about what atheists say about theists or is it a thread about what atheists should think about theists or is it a thread about what Tec thinks atheists think about theists ?

Tec - since you aren't an atheist and apparently were born a fully fledged gnostic Christian how on earth do you have a clue about what atheists think about theists? Have you still not moved on in your understanding that atheism isn't a unified group with some dogma. You'd have more ground for assertions if you chose an actual philosophy ( rationalism? Humanism? Skepticism?) rather than a word describing a state. Really suggests you don't actually read to understand the real positions of those who claim atheism and labour to explain.

I do think you have an important voice here but it would be great if you one day thought about how absurd it is for a stonewalling believer ( you for example) to claim greater insights than those who have been on both sides of the fence.We who have been believers understand your worldview, really, we do.

288

Is it just me or has this site become a Believer/Atheist warzone?

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i enjoy the odd thread about evoloution vs creation, etc but lately it seems that a large percentage of threads here devolve into fighting between atheists and theists and distract from what most of us here see eye to eye on, the wt and related things.

i wish things could be more civil here and fr people to realize that people will never see eye to eye on the topic.

it gets so tiring to see the contstant bickring and fighting on those threads.. they seem to go on page after page but very little of substance is discussed seeing as the existence or non existence of a god can be proven by anyone.

Qcmbr

I have a good friend and work colleague who is a staunch believer and I twigged the other day about what makes his religious pronouncements so obnoxious despite him otherwise being a respected team member. It's simply that when we enter a communication part of that engagement is allowing room to disagree and when he talks about his faith he makes the only option direct contradiction. The statement 'I believe in Slenderman' is socially more graceful than 'Slenderman visits us all at night.'

288

Is it just me or has this site become a Believer/Atheist warzone?

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i enjoy the odd thread about evoloution vs creation, etc but lately it seems that a large percentage of threads here devolve into fighting between atheists and theists and distract from what most of us here see eye to eye on, the wt and related things.

i wish things could be more civil here and fr people to realize that people will never see eye to eye on the topic.

it gets so tiring to see the contstant bickring and fighting on those threads.. they seem to go on page after page but very little of substance is discussed seeing as the existence or non existence of a god can be proven by anyone.

Qcmbr

Awesome Tec . Respond to a quote mine with another quote mine. Stunning.

If you find people constantly misunderstand you (how many times do you point this out!) then don't keep blaming them but wonder whether your message is obfuscated. Discussing something you've preached on here (my lord just told me x) is an exercise in herding cats since you never pin yourself down to anything but the widest latitude answers.