Posts by myelaine

148

Jehovah's Witnesses View of Jesus Compared to the Early Church

by cofty in

the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.

i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.

if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.

myelaine

dear Christ Alone...

I wasn't arguing with you, I was striving for clarity

love michelle

148

Jehovah's Witnesses View of Jesus Compared to the Early Church

by cofty in

the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.

i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.

if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.

myelaine

dear PSacramento...

mankind is a creation of God...the humanness of God the Son came from a creation of God...Mary.

dear Christ Alone...

you said: "But did Jesus exist as God before man was created? Yes! Jesus existed "in the beginning". John 1:1. This would be before everything else, including man."...john 1:1 says the Word existed before all things...it doesn't say that Jesus the Man existed before all things. Yes!...God the Son...the Word existed before all things but the flesh Man, Jesus came into being within the creation.

if you are saying that Jesus existed in the flesh before the creation (NOT just the notion of the Son's eventual incarnation as Jesus) then how do you reconcile that idea with the statement of God's nature..."God is Spirit"?

love michelle

148

Jehovah's Witnesses View of Jesus Compared to the Early Church

by cofty in

the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.

i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.

if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.

myelaine

dear PSacramento...

you said: " Where is the word created? to conceive in the sense of giving birth is not to create. "...

I'm not talking about "to conceive in the sense of giving birth"...I happen to believe that Jesus the Man was created at a point in [our] time. God created from His Spirit and the ovum of the virgin Mary...the result is a completely new creation. This in no way takes anything away from Jesus the Christ, but solidifies His UNIQUENESS. fully God, fully human.

Jesus came into BEING at the time of conception (He was not there, then He was there). God the Son is self-existant and didn't come into BEING, He's always BEEN. He said: "Before abraham was, I AM"...

do you believe that Jesus the Man is pre-existant and un-created? how have you come to these conclusions?

I think that because Jesus the Man is relative to the salvation OF man, it doesn't make sense and or even seem possible that Jesus the Man was pre-existant to the creation OF man. He couldn't really be OF the seed of Jesse if there was no Jesse yet Though, the need for a saviour(the Christ, Messiah) of man can be known ahead of [our] time (creation) by God since He sees the end from the beginning. Hence the certainty of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

love michelle

p.s. you said: "John 1:1 is a statement of nature. Jesus is divine. Like Colossians, Philipians and Hebrews, all statements of his equal nature with the Father."...having some of the attributes of God can equate with some of the characteristics of God...but being of the the same nature as God would make Jesus deity...fact scripture states that the indwelling Holy Spirit produces divine qualities or attributes in men but that doesn't make them deity...divinity and deity are corresponding but different.

148

Jehovah's Witnesses View of Jesus Compared to the Early Church

by cofty in

the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.

i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.

if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.

myelaine

dear PSacramento...

you said: "no where will you find mention that Jesus was created "...

Jesus the Man was created, it is mentioned in luke 1:31.

the office or role of the Christ is pre-existant and is fulfilled in the person of God the Son who is from everlasting. (rev. 5:12-14)

in order to fully restore the kingdom of God to israel (acts 1:2-8) the Son (john 1:29-30) had to be born in the flesh, die and be resurrected.

1 timothy 2:5...isaiah 9:6-7(note: from that time forward, even forever)

love michelle

317

Does God's foreknowledge take away from free will?

by Christ Alone in

just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.

my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.

if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.

myelaine

dear Entirely Possible...

you asked: "Why won't any believe answer my question? I've asked politely several times.

If God can know/guess/predict/etc. the future and there IS free-will, is there ANY chance, any percentage or any possibility that a person making a choice could choose differently that God thinks or has seen it will turn out?"...

I think because God can see the beginning from the end He can see your final choice [regarding Jesus Christ] as well as every choice you make before that. He is ever present in your "present", past and future.

love michelle

p.s. I say "regarding Jesus Christ" for the reason that the bible IS a dialogue between God and those He chose to be His servants...So everything that He wants to relay to mankind is outlined in the bible. That being, HIS plan of salvation. This doesn't mean that He isn't concerned with those who don't believe, because He makes the sun to rise on the wicked and the righteous...but He DOES have a purpose that is fulfilled (romans 10:1-36)and that His purpose is fulfilled as a blessing to the nations through His servants is His primary concern...xo

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

myelaine

dear New Chapter...

you said: "Nobody can ever judge the pureness of your motives for serving this god, not even you, because of the terror that is held over your head if you should refuse to do so."...

I'm not sure where you get the idea that terror is held over my head. I chose to turn to Jesus Christ for salvation because I know that I can't change who I really am and I don't suppose that others can change who they really are either. starting in the garden man has stood in opposition to God and its been man vs man right out the gate. God is going to change my nature to a reflection of Jesus Christ and save me from those who want my blood, I can't discern terror from God in that.

When the crowds shouted "crucify Him!" they were not sparing their nature (man vs. man) but God in His wisdom turned the tables on them by using their nature to both unite man to man (for those who would believe in Jesus Christ) and simultaneously bring those who would believe into union with God. "It is finished!"

you've recorded the fact that my preaching salvation in Jesus Christ isn't for my benefit (neither was it benefitting the first christians who were actually persecuted for their witness)...it is done for the benefit of those who would believe the gospel message and turn to Him as well. Now, no one is forcing you to turn to Jesus Christ for salvation but you've got to understand that once the last believer departs the Holy Spirit departs as well (2 thess. 2:7)...the world is going to get really ugly (man vs. man but for those who are united in opposition to God)...and then having rejected salvation in Jesus Christ (your flesh and spirit...wholeness)...you will be left with those spirits (fallen angels) who have chosen to work in opposition to God (jude 6-7)...You will be left OUTSIDE the new jerusalem.

I'm not threatening you with hell or condemning you to hell. I'm advising you (someone who has heard the gospel) to please turn to Jesus Christ for salvation because I am persuaded that to your benefit that is the best of your two options as recorded in scripture.

love michelle

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

myelaine

dear New Chapter...

in the 8 years I've been here I've rarely spoken about condemnation(I preach salvation in Jesus Christ)...but I'm not going to deny that Jesus spoke about it as consquence of rejecting Him.

love michelle

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

myelaine

dear Tammy...

I believe that paul was talking about jewish believers and gentile believers because that segment on the law (in romans 2:1-16) is sandwiched in between pauls discourse on the righteousness of God REVEALED from faith to faith.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith. romans 1:16-17

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. romans 3:21-26

you said: "The law would be written on anyone's heart... depending upon the nature of the heart"...but the law to the jewish people was also to be seperated for holiness to [their] God...that isn't written on "anyone's heart"...that is written first on the jewish believers heart and then the genitle believers heart...throughout the OT God is calling for the jewish people to RETURN to Him and in the NT the gentile TURNS to God through Jesus Christ.

I wrote:

that seperated "holiness to God" isn't written on the non-believers heart, at all, is it?...so thelaw isn't written on non-believers hearts...but it IS written in its entirety on a gentile believers heart. ie. seperated holiness to God, justice and mercy...because the spirit of the law IS kept by the same Spirit as Jesus Christ, Who fulfilled that law (but didn't do away with it).

and you said: "and interpretation. Everyone was a believer back then, in some god or another. "...so, are you suggesting that God wrote your "law of love" on the hearts of people who worshipped other gods?...for what purpose would He WRITE on the hearts of those who worshipped idols?...

I wrote:

Scripture says that no one is justified by works of the law but by faith in God and Jesus Christ. Without faith in God it is impossible to please God. That is the impetus behind preaching the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. There are the saved and the lost...not the saved AND the saved by their own works apart from faith in God AND the lost. (though you seem to believe that you've found a "loop hole" in the book of revelation that completely skirts the issue of salvation IN Jesus Christ alone)

and you said: "No loophole. Mainstream doesn't teach this, and so I understand why you do not believe it."...you're right, the church nor the bible teach what you do BECAUSE the great commission is about being sent to preach the gospel of salvation IN Jesus Christ to the nations...even if one is sent to the farthest point on the earth they are sent to preach the gospel to those who haven't heard it...no one is sent ahead of Jesus Christ to preach that they will be saved by good works. The scripture that you refer to in revelation when preaching that some will be set aside as sheep by their good works is acknowledged as those who haven't heard the gospel but it is in NO WAY representitive of the present company that you preach to. You believe that you have found a loophole that those who have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ but rejected it can slip through and be saved.

you said: "You already make an exception Michelle, for those who have not had a chance to get to know Him... why do you make even that exception?"...where does Jesus indicate that people have the opportunity to get to know Him before making their decision to accept His gift of salvation or reject it?...His disciples were told, "follow Me"...without ANY preamble. scripture states...NOW is the day of salvation(2 cor. 6:1-2)

you said: "Using it [the bible] to teach that Christ and God will send people to hell, no matter that they might have done good to others, is twisting it to serve another purpose... other than to share good news and truth."...I haven't said that God or Jesus is going to send anyone to hell...I've stated that Jesus saves from the present condemnation...that is what Jesus said in john 8:24...man is already condemned...Jesus saves man from that condemnation...that salvation (or not) being the result of an action of the free will.

You have given your listeners here a third option though...they don't have to make a choice for Jesus Christ they are free to reject Him because by their good works alone they may be saved...

love michelle

3

The numinous....the transcendent....or the Supernatural? Choose!

by Terry in

there is no thing in nothing but there is everything in art.. faith is art.

belief is art.

ecstacy of the mind is the percussive wave of art as it washes over our consciousness.. .

myelaine

dear Terry...

you said: "Now we place our feet opon two paths which never cross. The one is concrete, adamant and implacable while the other is deuces wild and endlessly possible of adventure!"...

au contraire...God and the scripture were, until quite recently, above deuces wild...there are still those who believe that scripture is absolute.

love michelle

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

myelaine

dear Tammy...

I believe the comparison is between jewish BELIEVING hearts and gentile BELIEVING hearts...

you seem to suggest that God writes SOME of the law on SOME non-believing hearts that aren't "stony" ...but you have to understand that the spirit of the written law didn't just include justice and mercy(characteristics some non-believers do display)...it contained the certain unquestioning seperation of the people from the surrounding nations for holiness to God...they were chosen by God tobe seperated under the law from everyone else.

that seperated "holiness to God" isn't written on the non-believers heart, at all, is it?...so thelaw isn't written on non-believers hearts...but it IS written in its entirety on a gentile believers heart. ie. seperated holiness to God, justice and mercy...because the spirit of the law IS kept by the same Spirit as Jesus Christ, Who fulfilled that law (but didn't do away with it).

Scripture says that no one is justified by works of the law but by faith in God and Jesus Christ. Without faith in God it is impossible to please God. That is the impetus behind preaching the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. There are the saved and the lost...not the saved AND the saved by their own works apart from faith in God AND the lost. (though you seem to believe that you've found a "loop hole" in the book of revelation that completely skirts the issue of salvation IN Jesus Christ alone)

That is why I suggest to you that the passage in matthew speaking about the sheep and the goats is talking about believers(warning them)...because though they had the law written on their hearts (both groups called Jesus Lord) both groups didn't fulfill the spirit of the law; that indwelling Spirit would have been urging them to "minister" to the needs of these people...just like Jesus did but, only the sheep who were led by that Spirit responded. The goats, though they professed Jesus as Lord, didn't allow themselves to be led by that Spirit...they had a "mind of their own"...like a stubborn goat. In this scripture there is agreement with what Jesus said about some who thought they were saved but are told to get away...Jesus never knew them.

The bible itself is a tool inspired for ministry of the gospel, it isn't a tool to reassure non-believers they can be saved by good works.

love michelle