i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
Nark
Please, you have no need to apologize. I didn't take it as rude at all. Again I really appreciate the clear way you make important points stand out. I can't tell you how illuminating your posts are to me, as well as several other posters. Merci beaucoup.
well the site has been revamped and many new topics added, enjoy and have fun!.
beans.
http://quotes.watchtower.ca/
what is CCRA?
Its the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency....You can go to the site and look up info on registered charities... like JW congregations (go figure on how they can get away with that one!)
You can find the link by going to the Menus: REQUIREMENTS ---->DO ----> FINANCES
[editted to say....sorry for posting the same stuff above...I was slow on the draw.]
Beans
Superb work buddy. Makes navigating through it easy, very quick, and its more engaging than the earlier layout you had. As always the content is beautifully damning.
i just received the free minds journal of nov.2004/jan2005.
on the last page there is a discussion and quotes from the watchtower 6/15/04, re: blood transfusions.. " some would refuse anything derived from blood ( even fractions intendedto provide temporary passive immunity ).
that is how they understand god's command to abstain from blood .
You'd think that the leadership of the WTBS would take the opportunity in this article to sanction the use of fractions to save lives. The whole blood ban is easily sidestepped, and they can still cover their asses/assets.
But in that same 6/15/04 WT on page 24, the last line of par. 16 reads:
"Moreover, some products derived from one of the four primary components may be so similar to the function of the whole component and carry on such a life-sustaining role in the body that most Christians would find them objectionable."
Its like their purposely targetting Hemopure or PolyHeme. Their that bent on martyrs?!!
What the #^<%ing hell is that?!!!!!
i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
it is absent
from all the oldest mss (including P66, P75 and the Vaticanus) --except the Alexandrinus. I only mentioned those witnesses which have the variant.
I'm glad its comfirmed and clarified. Nark, I see from the words you've stressed for me, that you realized I'm a bit obtuse and benefit from the more obvious. I'm sincere. Its practical. thanks.
i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
If I recall correctly (please someone set me straight if I've botched this), the clause "who is in heaven" isn't a part of John 3:13 in some of the oldest manuscripts. Isn't it absent in p66, p75?
I'm fascinated with that variant though. It can be used to support the orthodox view of Jesus' divinity, but dare I say it, even a gnostic christology. Jesus as a vessel for an emanation from the All (in the form of the heavenly Son of Man). A nexus of sorts. I'm ignorant on Philo's take on archangel though. Does it have any connotations of being a divine emanation?
lets just spare a thought for the tiny tots and older kids who won't be enjoying any christmas festivities this year.
no parties, no presents, no santa, no fun, no carols no anything.
it's a damned shame that kids miss out so much.
I hated having to go out to service every holiday that came up. But ever since my Dad got chewed out something nasty by someone just as few doors down from us, he never went out on Xmas again. Too bad I was already 17 by the time that happened.
i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
If Jesus is Michael then he does not have the authority to forgive sins
And if his ranking and nature remained unchanged I fully agree with you. I should have been a bit more careful with my posting...the quote I referenced was talking about their being no need for a saviour if Jesus was not Michael. That's what I was taking issue with. The flipside is as you say though.
i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
Further, if Michael is not Jesus in WT land, then what will the WT do with Jesus? This follows suite with what Russell did with eternal punishment and sin. By doing away with these, there really is not a need for a "real" savior.
Hi Elderwho,
The belief of Jesus as Redeemer isn't affected at all by his being Michael or not. All the other christian sects have no trouble with it. It is an important part of the WT's argument against Jesus being God though.
i've just received an email from a non-jw friend who is discussing some issues with a non-internet'ed jw and would like to offer some quotes.. i'm afraid i've lost track of some stuff and haven't time to find them right now.. can anyone help with any part of this?
i'm crap at pulling up links from this site, and i know many of these sujects have been discussed here.wt quotes that say jesus isn't the great crowd's mediatorrandy's citation of the 10/1 or 1/10 1993 wt that encourages witnesses to hate apostatesquotes where the wts said you must be a member to be savedthe threads on the 144,000 doctrine (i can think of at least a couple in the last year)threads regardling doctrine changes, especially regarding the "generation change"a rebuttal to "witnesses are the 1st on every disaster scene and help to rebuild non-witnesses' houses, etc.
anyway, any focus on humanitarian efforts are just like 'polishing the brass on the titanic'".. i've already sent the link to "quotes" site, and am in the middle of answering a number of other questions.. any help would be gratefully received.. thanks in advance..
kj
jv chap. 15 p. 207 Development of the Organization StructureWhen the Millennial Dawn volume entitled The New Creation (published in 1904)
Having to be part of the Org to be saved
w97 1/15 p. 22 What Does God Require of Us?
21
We are not alone in making the changes needed to bring our lives into harmony with God?s standards. Jehovah has a people on this earth, and he expects us to serve him along with them. This brings us to the fourth requirement. We must serve Jehovah with his spirit-directed organization. [Italics was theirs]22
How, though, can God?s organized people be identified? According to the standards set out in the Scriptures, they have real love among themselves, they have deep respect for the Bible, they honor God?s name, they preach about his Kingdom, and they are no part of this wicked world. (Matthew 6:9; 24:14; John 13:34, 35; 17:16, 17) There is only one religious organization on this earth that has all these marks of true Christianity?Jehovah?s Witnesses! [Italics was theirs]24
Are we not in a similar situation? We have been pulled from the dangerous "waters" of this wicked world into the "lifeboat" of Jehovah?s earthly organization. Within it, we serve side by side as we head for the "shores" of a righteous new world. If the pressures of life should cause us to grow weary along the way, how thankful we are for the assistance and comfort of true Christian companions!?Proverbs 17:17.
recently there have been discussions about the immortal soul, v's the wts beliefs, so i thought i'd present a little heard of (in jw circles) doctrine of the soul that seeks to explain some passages of scripture that are usually avoided.. first of all, leo posted some fascination information, which gives some background on the bible's general teaching on the soul:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/80742/1319806/post.ashx#1319806.
the doctrine itself surrounds two texts in particular, which i quote from the nwt:.
......will just have to stay in spiritual darkness on all these theological issues if all you smart bastards have trouble sorting through all the mess.
As an agnostic, Gumster I'm admitting I'm in "spiritual darkness" as you say...Groping around though can be rewarding in all sorts of ways...
