Posts by Midget-Sasquatch

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Midget-Sasquatch

If I recall correctly (please someone set me straight if I've botched this), the clause "who is in heaven" isn't a part of John 3:13 in some of the oldest manuscripts. Isn't it absent in p66, p75?

I'm fascinated with that variant though. It can be used to support the orthodox view of Jesus' divinity, but dare I say it, even a gnostic christology. Jesus as a vessel for an emanation from the All (in the form of the heavenly Son of Man). A nexus of sorts. I'm ignorant on Philo's take on archangel though. Does it have any connotations of being a divine emanation?

14

Kwithmath Twee, Oh Kwithmath Twee..

by Englishman in

jw
friends

lets just spare a thought for the tiny tots and older kids who won't be enjoying any christmas festivities this year.

no parties, no presents, no santa, no fun, no carols no anything.

it's a damned shame that kids miss out so much.

Midget-Sasquatch

I hated having to go out to service every holiday that came up. But ever since my Dad got chewed out something nasty by someone just as few doors down from us, he never went out on Xmas again. Too bad I was already 17 by the time that happened.

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Midget-Sasquatch

If Jesus is Michael then he does not have the authority to forgive sins

And if his ranking and nature remained unchanged I fully agree with you. I should have been a bit more careful with my posting...the quote I referenced was talking about their being no need for a saviour if Jesus was not Michael. That's what I was taking issue with. The flipside is as you say though.

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Midget-Sasquatch

Further, if Michael is not Jesus in WT land, then what will the WT do with Jesus? This follows suite with what Russell did with eternal punishment and sin. By doing away with these, there really is not a need for a "real" savior.

Hi Elderwho,

The belief of Jesus as Redeemer isn't affected at all by his being Michael or not. All the other christian sects have no trouble with it. It is an important part of the WT's argument against Jesus being God though.

15

Quick question - need some references that I don't have to hand.

by LittleToe in

i've just received an email from a non-jw friend who is discussing some issues with a non-internet'ed jw and would like to offer some quotes.. i'm afraid i've lost track of some stuff and haven't time to find them right now.. can anyone help with any part of this?

i'm crap at pulling up links from this site, and i know many of these sujects have been discussed here.wt quotes that say jesus isn't the great crowd's mediatorrandy's citation of the 10/1 or 1/10 1993 wt that encourages witnesses to hate apostatesquotes where the wts said you must be a member to be savedthe threads on the 144,000 doctrine (i can think of at least a couple in the last year)threads regardling doctrine changes, especially regarding the "generation change"a rebuttal to "witnesses are the 1st on every disaster scene and help to rebuild non-witnesses' houses, etc.

anyway, any focus on humanitarian efforts are just like 'polishing the brass on the titanic'".. i've already sent the link to "quotes" site, and am in the middle of answering a number of other questions.. any help would be gratefully received.. thanks in advance..

Midget-Sasquatch

kj

jv chap. 15 p. 207 Development of the Organization Structure
When the Millennial Dawn volume entitled The New Creation (published in 1904)

Having to be part of the Org to be saved

w97 1/15 p. 22 What Does God Require of Us?
21
We are not alone in making the changes needed to bring our lives into harmony with God?s standards. Jehovah has a people on this earth, and he expects us to serve him along with them. This brings us to the fourth requirement. We must serve Jehovah with his spirit-directed organization. [Italics was theirs]
22
How, though, can God?s organized people be identified? According to the standards set out in the Scriptures, they have real love among themselves, they have deep respect for the Bible, they honor God?s name, they preach about his Kingdom, and they are no part of this wicked world. (Matthew 6:9; 24:14; John 13:34, 35; 17:16, 17) There is only one religious organization on this earth that has all these marks of true Christianity?Jehovah?s Witnesses! [Italics was theirs]
24
Are we not in a similar situation? We have been pulled from the dangerous "waters" of this wicked world into the "lifeboat" of Jehovah?s earthly organization. Within it, we serve side by side as we head for the "shores" of a righteous new world. If the pressures of life should cause us to grow weary along the way, how thankful we are for the assistance and comfort of true Christian companions!?Proverbs 17:17.

65

The doctrine of the Tri-Part man.

by LittleToe in

recently there have been discussions about the immortal soul, v's the wts beliefs, so i thought i'd present a little heard of (in jw circles) doctrine of the soul that seeks to explain some passages of scripture that are usually avoided.. first of all, leo posted some fascination information, which gives some background on the bible's general teaching on the soul:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/80742/1319806/post.ashx#1319806.

the doctrine itself surrounds two texts in particular, which i quote from the nwt:.

Midget-Sasquatch

......will just have to stay in spiritual darkness on all these theological issues if all you smart bastards have trouble sorting through all the mess.

As an agnostic, Gumster I'm admitting I'm in "spiritual darkness" as you say...Groping around though can be rewarding in all sorts of ways...

65

The doctrine of the Tri-Part man.

by LittleToe in

recently there have been discussions about the immortal soul, v's the wts beliefs, so i thought i'd present a little heard of (in jw circles) doctrine of the soul that seeks to explain some passages of scripture that are usually avoided.. first of all, leo posted some fascination information, which gives some background on the bible's general teaching on the soul:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/80742/1319806/post.ashx#1319806.

the doctrine itself surrounds two texts in particular, which i quote from the nwt:.

Midget-Sasquatch

It does beg an important theological question, that of does the Soul / Spirit combination survive death, or just the Spirit. The answer to this has an impact on the theory of where our memories reside, and what continues...

Excellent question there LT.Do the experiences of christian mystics have any bearing here? They often describe a merging with the Divine and a loss of self identity.....Just the Spirit continues then perhaps? But then there's the OBEs which if taken at face value would definitely argue for both Soul/Spirit. Either way, I agree that this discussion is very helpful to freeing up the mind from the WT brainfreeze. (But I still tend to think the mind is physically based ).

65

The doctrine of the Tri-Part man.

by LittleToe in

recently there have been discussions about the immortal soul, v's the wts beliefs, so i thought i'd present a little heard of (in jw circles) doctrine of the soul that seeks to explain some passages of scripture that are usually avoided.. first of all, leo posted some fascination information, which gives some background on the bible's general teaching on the soul:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/80742/1319806/post.ashx#1319806.

the doctrine itself surrounds two texts in particular, which i quote from the nwt:.

Midget-Sasquatch

I hope this isn't too off topic but this called to my mind the 3 categories of people according to gnostics. You had the hyletics (who realized only the material, physical, earthly reality), the psychics (who realized there was more to reality than the physical, they broadened their scope to the mind but didn't acquire true gnosis), and finally the pneumatics (achieved gnosis and so were sure to liberate their divine sparks within themselves).

Can we also call upon the findings from neuroscience (which shows the physical basis of mind), and modify that model to just two components? Say --- meld the mind and body as one, and the spirit as another?

25

Raphael and Jesus

by peacefulpete in

randel helms in gospel fictions has surmised that the story of jesus' appearance to mary at the tomb is dependent upon the raphael story in tobit.

at tobit 5-12 the character encounters the archangel raphael yet does not recognize him as such.

when he identifies himself, the human characters (tobias and wife) fall upon their faces.

Midget-Sasquatch

Narkissos

Thank you very much for those compelling scriptural references. I've always been intrigued by Paul's interesting fusion of pagan and Jewish beliefs.

Leo

Thanks for that link. For me, it was a stimulating mixture of old and new information. It was my first exposure to portions of the apocryphal Acts of John. I love gnostic themes. That from a professed agnostic.

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Midget-Sasquatch

Heathen

I'll take your remark as a complement, since thats what I was blatantly trying to do. Hmmm, it was very easy for me though....what if I always sound like that?!

I am saying that the bible has been tampered with for thousands of years and that the part about enoch sounds all too much like myth

If you believe the Bible's been tampered with, wouldn't you want to cross-reference it with as many independent sources as you can get a hold of? If nothing is accurate enough though, then how do you personally go about deciding on what you can confidently believe or not? I'm not arguing, but am genuinely curious, since I don't take much stock in many of the OT accounts either. Alot of myth there I'd say.