Posts by AlmostAtheist

83

To those that believe in a god; Please help me believe

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

hey gang,.

this isn't a debate-for-debate's sake thread.

i enter with an informed but open mind.

AlmostAtheist

You guys are great, I really appreciate your efforts in what must certainly appear to be a fruitless discussion. I assure, you it isn't. All your posts together are forming a very good view into your minds on this subject, it has already been immensely helpful.

Someone has probably already mentioned it but "Occam's Razor" is a terribly complicated, long-winded discussion that can be summed up as "The simplest solution is usually the correct one." You also hear it stated as, "When you hear hoofbeats behind you, think horses -- not zebras". OR has let me down often enough that I don't give it much credence, but that's the idea. (Admittedly they usually *are* horses...)

I'll reply more when I don't have a baby in my hands! ;-)

Dave

83

To those that believe in a god; Please help me believe

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

hey gang,.

this isn't a debate-for-debate's sake thread.

i enter with an informed but open mind.

AlmostAtheist

Czar: Thanks for taking me seriously, I appreciate the time and thought it took to record your views. If I may, I'd like to respond to them and hopefully we can discuss it as much as possible. (There comes a point where honest men disagree [or so I'm told. If I ever meet one, I'll ask him] but hopefully we can accomplish something before that point.)

The argument that "If I were God I would swoop in and save everybody" is a fallacy. If you are going to presuppose a merciful God, then you have to have faith in life after death. If you are going to deny him, then you have to say that terrible things are just a cosmic burp, a conflict with forces beyond our control or ability to predict. Either way, death is not the worst thing in life.

I don't think death is the problem, suffering is the problem. For instance, if an innocent woman were being raped right in front of you and you could stop it with no possibility of injury to yourself and no cost, you couldn't help but jump in and save her. Yet virtually every god-belief describes a being that knows everything, is all-powerful, yet does nothing. Yes, by our nature, we die. But "painful, agonizing deaths" are simply not a necessary part of it. I can't agree that it's fallacious to think if I had more power, I'd do more good, and so if I was all powerful, I would do great good. (Preventing all rapes -- that one act -- would be huge)

And through faith, we can endure the worst deaths, confident that the lessons we learn will come in useful.

A newborn has a malformed heart. She screams when she's not on painkillers, and she dies when she's 3 weeks old. What did she learn? A child is born, and is immediately damaged in an accident. He's a vegetable until he's 14 when he succumbs to pneumonia. What did he learn? I can't buy the "we learn on the earth what we use later in heaven" argument since so many never get to learn anything.

Besides, if you were going to ask god to stop your neighbor from cutting your throat, that would imply a certain degree of faith and trust in him and his ability to choose correct actions for you, as well as your neighbor.It would hardly be fair to ask God to stop your neighbor from what we shall call "sin" and let YOU off the hook. Where would you and God draw the agreement lines? Would you be willing to let Him stop you from say, fornication, if He knew that it would harm somebody?.

I think my lost job/slit throat comparison fits this. No, I wouldn't imagine myself as God correcting every little thing. If you can't get good TV reception, call your cable guy, not God. But there are lines that God himself should be able to draw between right and wrong without impinging on free-will. And of course, I'm not asking to be 'let off the hook'. If I try to rape somebody, somebody should stop me. But it won't be God. That's why I don't get it. We are supposed to be his creation, and yet we're the ones that can't just sit by and watch pointless suffering. If we see it, we step in, even if it means risking our own lives. God would put nothing at risk, and yet does nothing. Your point is "Ok, but to what degree?" It's a valid point, but I think we could agree that "murder for fun" is not acceptable. If you knew I was going to bash in somebody's skull with a bat because I want to see how it feels, you'd stop me. But God won't. Far from 'proving nothing', I think that proves everything about God's existence, or at least his apathy.

83

To those that believe in a god; Please help me believe

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

hey gang,.

this isn't a debate-for-debate's sake thread.

i enter with an informed but open mind.

AlmostAtheist

We're off to a rousing start! Thank you, everyone, for your participation so far.

I'll respond, but please don't take me as argumentative. See it more as exploring. A five-year-old asks, "Why is the sky blue?" not to challenge you, presupposing you don't have a good answer. He genuinely assumes that you know, and just wants to know too. That's me. I'm assuming you have good reasons for believing and I am just trying to determine what they are. In discussing them, I am most decidely *not* trying to convince you that there is no god. I am trying to get some reasoning in front of me that I haven't seen before on the topic.

Thanks again, and here we go:

Sunchild: You wrote, "I became a Christian because when I was very, very close to committing suicide, I felt something urging me to pray to a God I no longer believed in." Firstly, I'm very glad you found a way to avoid suicide! The despair that brings you to that point is maddening, that it's in your past now is great. Congratulations! I've always felt that personal experience is one of those things that's impossible to argue with. "But I've *seen* it!" There's little you can say to that. Considering all the things I've seen and felt in my life that I now know were not what I thought they were, I just don't trust personal experience. My own, much less anyone else's. This seems to fall into the "I feel Jesus in my heart" category. I'm glad it works for you, but it isn't something that could convince someone else.

jehovahhunter: Yes, I'm seriously looking for help. "I know someone who could answer your questions" - Who? PM me, if you'd rather. All Bibles carry essentially the same message, but if it matters, I'm reading the NIV. The "prophecies" of the Bible don't impress me as much as they used to. For instance, the Messianic prophecies. There are over a hundred prophecies pointing to Jesus: born of a virgin, born in Bethlehem, clothes divided up by lots, no broken bones, etc. Except when you actually read these alleged "prophecies", they aren't talking about future events at all. They're just part of discussions on other topics. But somebody reached back, found every verse that has the word "He" in it, and found some way to apply it to Jesus. Other prophecies are similarly vague, or when they are specific, have been found to have likely been written after the events took place.

I don't want this to become a "Why I believe the Bible" thread, though I see some validity in saying, "But [x] from the Bible could only have been placed there by God, thus proving he exists!" Prophecies, scientific truths unknown at the time of the Bible's writing, miracles witnessed by hundreds, that sort of thing. If you personally have something very solid about why you believe the Bible proves that God exists, please post it.

SheilaM: "I see [my granddaughter] use her left hand like my Mom and pat me on my leg just like my Mom, a person that died and she never met" I know what you mean, I see my kids do things that my parents and in-law's do. The way they smile or the way they look when they're concentrating. There's no way my 3-month-old has learned and copied my father-in-law's mannerisms, yet there they are! But how does that indicate to you that there's a god?

gespro: "I'm convinced He's there." What convinced you? I'm sure it wasn't one big thing, but was there a top five list of things that really woke you up to belief in a god? I'll look into Randall Watter's info, his bio is here: http://www.freeminds.org/history/watters.htm

groovycat.: "Why do people still feel they have to believe in a god?" You make some good points. Nobody today prays to Thor to stop thundering from the heavens, it is accepted that thunder and lightning are naturally occurring events. Nobody says a prayer to Molech over their crops, or if they do, you can bet they still fertilize and water them. So the only things left for a god to do for us is create us and our universe. If evolution and big bang-esque views become as widely accepted as thunder and lightning, I wonder what god there will be left?

We're off to a good start, thanks everyone!

Dave

83

To those that believe in a god; Please help me believe

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

hey gang,.

this isn't a debate-for-debate's sake thread.

i enter with an informed but open mind.

AlmostAtheist

Hey Gang,

This isn't a debate-for-debate's sake thread. I enter with an informed but open mind. It would benefit me personally for reasons I'd rather not go into if I believed in a God. *Some* kind of God, any god will do. A Christian God, actually, would be the most useful, but any port in a storm, ya know?

Below are some common "Why I believe there's a God" arguments and why I disagree with them. I'm not trying to short circuit anybody, just trying to skip to the meat of the discussion.

So, please, have at me.

I don't buy an argument from Intelligent Design, since the theory it runs on -- "everything is too complex to not have a Designer" -- would also require a Designer of the Designer of the Designer, etc. If I misunderstand that view, please correct me. And of course, just saying, "Well, it had to start *somewhere*" doesn't work.

I don't buy the "I feel Jesus in my heart, that's how I know it's real" argument because so many people feel that way about their religion, even conflicting religions. Everybody that's serious about their religion -- even the 9/11 pilots -- "feel" their god in their hearts. When I was a JW, *I* felt it. If you still feel that's a valid argument, please explain why.

I can't accept that the Bible is from God, since it has so many contradictions that you can only explain through scriptural sleight of hand. "God is Love", but 'God commands the Israelites to kill babies and not feel sorry about it', that sort of thing.

Those are only reasons to not actively believe in a god, they don't actually preclude the existence of one.

I feel that the absence of any sort of divine intervention in situations where innocent humans are suffering and screaming and what not is a reason to actively believe that there is not a god. I don't buy that "it's just life, it's not god's fault" because if I had God's alleged power, I sure would swoop in and stop major suffering. You lost your job? Tough, you'll get another one. I can buy that. But your neighbor sneaks into your house and slits your throat while you sleep? Nope, if I were God I'd stop him. If you have a good argument against that, please post it.

And while the mechanics of every little bit of evolution may be up for debate, I'm comortable that life evolves. If you have serious scholarly refutation of that, please post it. Just posting "I can't see how [complex thing x] could possibly have just evolved" isn't an argument, you're just saying you don't know. But if you're comfortable that you can prove that life could not have arisen without divine help, please post it.

Of course, there's still the question of where the blob of stellar what's-its came from prior to the alleged Big Bang. Did God create that, and then let it all happen from there? Or has the blob always existed eternally? You can't reasonably say it couldn't have always existed, since most believers will say that God has always existed. Point being, if you can say God just always existed, we can as easily assume that the blob has always existed. Again, if you have a refutation for that, please post it.

Thanks for you help and your patience!

Dave

57

what sin is facial hair supposed to lead to?

by little1 in

i am curious as to why jws aren't allowed to have facial hair.

and why, then, was it okay for jesus?.

inquiring minds want to know.. l1

AlmostAtheist

*** w68 5/1 p. 288 Questions from Readers ***

In recent years in many lands a beard or long hair on a man attracts immediate notice and may, in the minds of the majority, classify such a person undesirably with extremists or as rebels against society. God?s ministers want to avoid making any impression that would take attention away from their ministry or hinder anyone from listening to the truth. They know that people are watching true Christians very critically and that to a great extent they judge the entire congregation and the good news by the minister?s appearance as a representative of the congregation.

Still a load a crap, of course. But I can't grow anything you'd recognize as a beard anyway, so a moot point for me I suppose. (Didn't Papa Smurf have a beard? I never trusted that demonic little gnome!)

22

Lost

by peggy in

i tried to send my message but it went to inbox.. i am new to forum, and am not sure if this is where i want to be.

i have no trust in any organization, as a hierachy exists in them all.

possibly even here.

AlmostAtheist

Welcome Aboard, and congratulations on making some steps away from the Watchtower. You said you want to "really live" and I have found in the few months that I've been out of the organization that I have begun to actually live. It's wonderful not having articficial guilt piled on you all the time. "I missed ANOTHER meeting.. I really could've gone, but I didn't.. what a shlep I am..." and so on and so forth. Magazines pile up, staring at you. A pile of paper giving you a guilt trip!

But you're ready to back away from all that. You will feel and enjoy the release, and it feels so good. Depression is huge, I endured it as well, laying in bed for days at a time. I'm sorry you're going through that, and all the other lousiness your life has handed you. The good news is you're making some positive steps to climb up and enjoy your life.

Take care,

Dave

109

Pathetic JW Web Site

by DevonMcBride in

jw
friends

.

this guy needs a friend...and a life.

definitely a few fries short of a happy meal.. http://www.flyinhi.freeservers.com/.

AlmostAtheist

Wow, poor guy. He's got nothing but his "veiws" and only 4 "peeps".

47

The universe, designed to support life?

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

i have heard many creationists say: "just look at the universe!

there are so many things about it that have to be just right for it to be able to support life.

an interesting point, so i did a bit of basic math:.

AlmostAtheist

Douglas Adams (an atheist) responded to the "God made the universe just perfect for us" argument by referring to a puddle. Imagine one day a puddle came to life. It looked around its hole, the nooks and crannies that so perfectly carresses its tendrils of water, the perfect temperature that prevented its freezing or evaporating, the perfect placement for not getting stomped on by miscreants. "My!" the puddle would declare, "This hole *couldn't* be an accident! It was designed perfectly to fit me!"

7

Please Help!

by whyamihere in

i dont know how to exactly word this but i am having a problem and am needed of advice!.

my mother and i were talking and i was never intelligent or had deep information on the jw religion ever in my life.

i was mainly a follower and thought it was the truth and never had the need to question anything as maybe some of you felt the same as i do and did.

AlmostAtheist

You sound just a little unsure about your decision to be outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization. That's understandable, the indoctrination we all received from the meetings and other Witnesses was very, very strong. You can arm yourself with education. Read the book "Crisis of Conscience" (http://www.commentarypress.com, http://amazon.com or your library would have it) It's a bird's-eye view of the organization through the eyes of a former Governing Body member.

Reason on the "truth". I did a write up on birthdays and why forbidding them doesn't make sense, please check it out: http://www.thebentinel.com/jw-birthdays.html I want to do a similar one on blood and other "easy" topics so people can quickly convince themselves that JW's don't have "the truth".

Maybe on the wrong track here, forgive me if so. But if you've got any doubt that JW's are not the true religion, that will eat away at you in the form of fear and guilt. I hate to see that happen to anyone. Just because they have an answer for everything doesn't mean they have all the answers!

Dave

18

Revelation 11:18 ("bring to ruin those ruining the earth") Meaning?

by AlmostAtheist in

hey folks,.

just curious, any concensus on what john actually meant here?

i doubt a guy in the first century could honestly envision a time when mankind could genuinely "ruin the earth" if the idea struck them.

AlmostAtheist

Hey Folks,

Just curious, any concensus on what John actually meant here? I doubt a guy in the first century could honestly envision a time when mankind could genuinely "ruin the earth" if the idea struck them. So what was John really talking about here? The same kind of "ruination" that the earth experienced at the hands of the pre-Noah folks that were said to have "ruined the earth"?

Thanks for any insight.

Dave