Posts by biblexaminer

24

The Olivet Discourse

by biblexaminer in

i'm interested in hearing someone explain the olivet discourse.. note, there's much discussion on other sites, but so far, i've not heard an explanation of the entire discourse in a way that is logical, in full harmony and complete.. some feel that they have figured out one piece or another.

however, when inconsistencies are highlighted, the discussion ends.

some make outlandish claims.. i know that the watchtower version is so much refuse.

biblexaminer

Thanks.

* I hope you are not thin skinned and take offense when others choose to have and express an opposing view. I am fact oriented. And I in no wise am any sort of Preterist.

I came to the conclusion that you were a "partial Preterist" early on.

Unfortunately, you are saying it both ways from my standpoint. And we can never have it both ways. *

It is a matter of where you decide Jesus changed horses. Of course we each think the over is in error.

In choosing the spot that you did you, you unfortunately relegate the Second Coming, which is described in very accurate detail as 'seen by all and quite glorious', to a non-event of the first century of which there is no record. It then becomes 'spiritualized' to the point that it evaporates and it undermines the Christian hope by telling a story of a 'parousia past'.

Jesus contrasted the false teachers, just prior to His Second Coming (Mt 24:23-26),with the reality of His coming (Mt 24:27-31) it being, not hidden like some cowardly act, but glorious and for every eye to see, like lightening filling the entire sky from east to west.

Jesus even twice makes mention of the subsequent 'taking away' of His chosen ones, what some call the 'rapture', during this monumental event. This did not happen in 70ce and if it all did, then Christians hold faith for nothing.

How could one teach that the Second Coming took place as you tell it, in the first century, and then teach that it's also future? We cannot have it both ways.

I noticed that you didn't show any reasons why my views above are in error. You have stated your views several times, but not demonstrated why mine are in error. I have tried to do this with your work. I feel I have.

May I ask you to please refrain from cut-and-paste and respond to our conversation on a point by point basis. Having had discussions with others in the past, I've seen much of the information you cut and paste, much of which I find of no value. Please refer to the Scriptures instead of cut and paste, I have copies. Thanks so much

24

The Olivet Discourse

by biblexaminer in

i'm interested in hearing someone explain the olivet discourse.. note, there's much discussion on other sites, but so far, i've not heard an explanation of the entire discourse in a way that is logical, in full harmony and complete.. some feel that they have figured out one piece or another.

however, when inconsistencies are highlighted, the discussion ends.

some make outlandish claims.. i know that the watchtower version is so much refuse.

biblexaminer

Looking over your info Vander, I see you take an opinion that fosters Preterism. I am quite sure it would be incorrect to believe that at Mt. 24:23, Jesus is still talking about Jerusalem. He closed that discussion in verse 22. It was complete.

Indeed, He has changed the focus onto the second question, concerning our day. This is confirmed by Mark and Luke. At Mark 13:21, for instance, Jesus, referring to the last days, warns that "Then also", in the last days, there would come false messiahs.

Luke records this change with more brevity at Lu. 21:25. "Also" and refers to what John recorded in the Apocalypse. (Hence, the Olivet Discourse is also referred to as "The Little Apocalypse".)

By confusing this, one relegates the Second Coming, which Jesus promised "every eye shall see" Rev. 1:7, to a non-event and that gives fuel to Preterism and also detractors.

My Jesus will come. And He will come as He said he will at Luke 21:27 and His Sign, the Sign Of The Son Of Man, is HIS SIGN. As Jonah's sign was named after him, and Christ borrowed it, so Jesus sign belongs to the Christ, the sign of a blackened sky, (Mark 15:33) such as when He expired on our behalf. Mt. 24:29, Mr. 13:24, Lu. 21:25, Rev. 6:12.

I eagerly await The Sixth Seal. Come Lord Jesus.

24

The Olivet Discourse

by biblexaminer in

i'm interested in hearing someone explain the olivet discourse.. note, there's much discussion on other sites, but so far, i've not heard an explanation of the entire discourse in a way that is logical, in full harmony and complete.. some feel that they have figured out one piece or another.

however, when inconsistencies are highlighted, the discussion ends.

some make outlandish claims.. i know that the watchtower version is so much refuse.

biblexaminer

I took a look at the Chiams angle. Not for me. Maybe a different Jesus. Vander has a few interesting points. Completely contradicts everything in the Chiams work. So you know somebody here is not on the mark.

I will comment on Vander's work as I see a few things in there of value.

How about this quote. "- Impossible -Matt.24:21 precludes dual fulfillment."

Vander, I didn't see anywhere in there where you explained this. Can I help?

This verse says the 'Tribulation' in question had never happened up until the time that it would, It then would happen and never happen again ....therefore is a one-time-event. ? Is this what you mean?

In this case, the Generation Jesus spoke of could only be His own and therefore the Generation teaching of the WTS is bologna.

Was I on your wavelength?

1

Check the competition

by biblexaminer in

if one wants to know where the watchtower society is going, just breeze over to their competitors site.

tct.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=tct+network&rlz=1c9bkja_enca677ca677&oq=tct&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j69i59j69i60j0j69i60.3770j0j4&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=utf-8&hl=en-us#hl=en-us&q=garth+coonce&imgrc=z8rsi20dawwolm%3a.

biblexaminer

If one wants to know where the Watchtower Society is going, just breeze over to their competitors site. TCT.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=tct+network&rlz=1C9BKJA_enCA677CA677&oq=tct&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j69i59j69i60j0j69i60.3770j0j4&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8&hl=en-US#hl=en-US&q=garth+coonce&imgrc=Z8RsI20daWwOlM%3A

You can see what the bigGbigB is competing with and where the rabbit hole is that all the money is disappearing down. TCT network has one edition of their TCT.TV that discusses the amounts of money involved and the retirement of their debt.

The situation for WTBTS would be far worse, because TCT is an amalgamation of a multiple of separate groups. Watchtower is alone. And Watchtower is trying to juggle their competition while at the same time remaining in the seat or Moses.

24

The Olivet Discourse

by biblexaminer in

i'm interested in hearing someone explain the olivet discourse.. note, there's much discussion on other sites, but so far, i've not heard an explanation of the entire discourse in a way that is logical, in full harmony and complete.. some feel that they have figured out one piece or another.

however, when inconsistencies are highlighted, the discussion ends.

some make outlandish claims.. i know that the watchtower version is so much refuse.

biblexaminer

I'm interested in hearing someone explain the Olivet Discourse.

Note, there's much discussion on other sites, but so far, I've not heard an explanation of the entire discourse in a way that is logical, in full harmony and complete.

Some feel that they have figured out one piece or another. However, when inconsistencies are highlighted, the discussion ends.

Some make outlandish claims.

I know that the Watchtower version is so much refuse. It's so self-contradictory and slanders God and our Lord. And it doesn't make any sense either.

If you have an opinion on one aspect or another, then that might be interesting to hear.

But what I am interested in is individuals who can make it all work.

41

Talking with a young elder

by biblexaminer in

i had a discussion with an elder recently.

it was interesting in a macabre sense.

we were outside the kingdom hall on a nice sunny day recently.

biblexaminer

Oubliette

Allow me to quote you finally. You said "... isn't clear about the point he wanted to make."

The point, fellow poster, is that this was a life's experience. It isn't a "writing" as you make reference to. I had no intention of writing a novel or a user manual designed to point everything out for each reader. The fact that you failed to grasp the significance of the conversation I was relating is unimportant. You interjected yourself into the discussion trying to make yourself the focus. The whole world should stop turning because you failed to grasp the meaning. (insert kicking and screaming here)

You would walk into a lecture about rocket science and tell the instructor he was "abstruse" because you couldn't get it.

And when he threw you out of the room, you would label him "pedantic".

Those that needed to understand, those who have history in the Org, those who have some bible learning under their belt... these understand. And they can use this tool.

Now, I won't bother you again. I would appreciate the reciprocal.

41

Talking with a young elder

by biblexaminer in

i had a discussion with an elder recently.

it was interesting in a macabre sense.

we were outside the kingdom hall on a nice sunny day recently.

biblexaminer

re; Oubliett

"Your OP was not clear. I asked for clarification rather than assuming I understood your point since it was not clearly articulated"

On the board, there are those who 'got it' straight off. No? I can read that there.

I give readers credit for having some grey matter of their own. They can figure things out.

However, if a student stumbles into a class for advanced calculus, and he has grade 9 math, he's not going to understand. If he raises himself up as a scholar a midst that group and talks negatively among those who have learned and comprehend things on a level beyond his understanding, then he only makes himself the fool.

41

Talking with a young elder

by biblexaminer in

i had a discussion with an elder recently.

it was interesting in a macabre sense.

we were outside the kingdom hall on a nice sunny day recently.

biblexaminer

re; punkofnice

"They seem to have the idea that the WBT$ isn't perfect but 'it's the nearest thing to the truth.'"

Ain't that the truth.

41

Talking with a young elder

by biblexaminer in

i had a discussion with an elder recently.

it was interesting in a macabre sense.

we were outside the kingdom hall on a nice sunny day recently.

biblexaminer

re; the posters who have nothing good to say.

41

Talking with a young elder

by biblexaminer in

i had a discussion with an elder recently.

it was interesting in a macabre sense.

we were outside the kingdom hall on a nice sunny day recently.

biblexaminer

re; konceptual99

Good observation. You are an aspiring bible student. You will go far. Thank you for your question.

In answer, I say first, utilize the references in the NWT, or other bibles. You will find that Paul, in writing to the Galatians (Gal 2) gave a great run down of what happened in Antioch and afterwards in Jerusalem.

Paul allowed the readers to see, not just what happened in further detail, but how he felt about it all.Paul pointed fingers.

Gal 2:12 "For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he (Peter) used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they (certain men from James) came, he (Peter) began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party (certain men from James) of the circumcision."

The "party of the circumcision" was sent there by James, acting chief of the older men in Jerusalem who were starting up their governing body machine.

Acts 15 in the NWT seems to imply that Paul's going to Jerusalem was something worked out by these "certain men". Here, to the Galatians, Paul makes clear what was really the case. Gal. 2:2 "And it was because of a revelation (by Jesus) that I went up; .... but I did so in private to those who were of reputation (those older men who were attempting to centralize authority in a governing body) ... in "private" for fear that he might be wasting his time. Paul was hoping to turn them to Christ instead of blowing them out the door.

Read Acts 15 side by side with Galatians 2. Meditate on what you read.

Paul's unwillingness to meet with these "older men" of the newfangled governing older men on later occasions is understood. Paul had disdain for these men who were trying to gain disciples unto themselves, really, in competition with the Holy Spirit ...who was gaining disciples for Christ.

biblexaminer

Posts by biblexaminer

Good observation. You are an aspiring bible student. You will go far. Thank you for your question.

In answer, I say first, utilize the references in the NWT, or other bibles. You will find that Paul, in writing to the Galatians (Gal 2) gave a great run down of what happened in Antioch and afterwards in Jerusalem.

Paul allowed the readers to see, not just what happened in further detail, but how he felt about it all.Paul pointed fingers.

Gal 2:12 "For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he (Peter) used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they (certain men from James) came, he (Peter) began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party (certain men from James) of the circumcision."

The "party of the circumcision" was sent there by James, acting chief of the older men in Jerusalem who were starting up their governing body machine.

Read Acts 15 side by side with Galatians 2. Meditate on what you read.

Paul's unwillingness to meet with these "older men" of the newfangled governing older men on later occasions is understood. Paul had disdain for these men who were trying to gain disciples unto themselves, really, in competition with the Holy Spirit ...who was gaining disciples for Christ.

All quotes from the NAS Bible