slimboyfat

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Posts by slimboyfat

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  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

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  slimboyfat

  The Christian Bible says that. But it’s just because a later work retrofits a character from an earlier work without regard to the actual development or original purpose of the source material, not because any of it is actually true.

  The book of Genesis is itself a reworking of an earlier source. So why prioritise the reworking of the story by the compiler of Genesis over the reworking of the story by the compilers of the Bible?

  What do you mean by “actually true”? We can only interpret the story in a context, whether you pick an early Jewish context, or a later Christian context, those are interpretive choices. We don’t have access to the story in its original form, so it’s not as if you can claim a pristine original that must be sacrosanct. One contextual reading is not “actually true”, and the other “false”. They are both narratives and make sense in their own terms. Unless you are arguing that there really was a snake in an actual garden of Eden and that one interpretation is closer to that reality than another, and therefore “actually true”. I can’t imagine that’s what you mean.
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  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

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  slimboyfat

  If you’re not interested in the Bible’s answer to the question who told the first lie then I don’t know what we’re talking about. Even if you think it’s fiction, I don’t know what the point is of imposing a different answer than the one given by the Bible itself. You could argue Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz wasn’t from Kansas because she didn’t have a Kansas accent. Okay but what’s your point. In the film she’s from Kansas.

  If you’re making an argument about the original intention of the author of Genesis against what later Bible writers interpreted that story to mean, then I don’t think it’s as straightforward as you might imagine for a number of reasons. Who the original author was, what form the story originally took, and what it meant to the first audience is perhaps beyond recovery at this point. It’s entirely possible the original author meant something completely different than the text can currently divulge because it has been adapted and now appears in a context which it didn’t originally have. So it’s not as easy as you might think to say that later Bible writers got the original meaning wrong but you have got it right, and this is what it is. Even if you could be certain about original meaning of the Genesis story (presumably before there was a book of Genesis, an earlier source that we don’t have access to) by the author in its original form, whatever that was, it’s still different from the meaning it currently exhibits as part of the Bible as a whole.

  While it’s true the Bible arose as a diverse set of documents that accumulated and adapted over time, it now appears as an edited collection and it makes sense to read it in that way. It’s not a coincidence, for example, that the book of Revelation recapitulates and resolves issues set up in Genesis, including the identity and fate of Satan. If you say you are not interested in the answer the Bible itself supplies to the question of what was going on in Genesis, who was the first liar, and so on, fair enough, but I don’t know what we’re doing then. The Bible itself says Satan was the original serpent and the first liar.
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  25

  New instructions on not using sisters to manage KH computer ?

  by fifth.column in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  since covid in france, especially in the countryside with lack of brothers, it was quite common that some sisters were using the computer at the back of the kingdom hall to manage zoom session.. i heard a rumor that new instructions, maybe a july letter, stated that this was reserved for male only, even unbaptised publishers, but no sister if there is at least a male available.

  that would be a steps back and disappointment for these sisters.

  last week i heard at my mom’s house how they were happy that this service was available for them, a proof that the org was moving forward.

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  slimboyfat

  I wondered what was going on. In the past few years since covid a brother and wife (various couples, not just one) have managed the sound together and when the brother got up to give a talk the wife took over during his talk. On Tuesday, when the brother got up to give a talk, instead of his wife taking over control, another brother came up, sat beside the wife of the other brother at the sound booth, and took over control himself. When the brother finished his talk, the other brother got up, and the original brother went back to the sound booth next to his wife and took control of the sound again. I thought this form of musical chairs was novel, so a new letter with these instructions would explain it.
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  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  Who told the first lie?

  According to the Bible the devil is “the father of lies”. It’s fair enough reading Genesis in different ways (many, including Christadelphains, see no devil there at all) but in terms of the Christian Bible’s own interpretation of itself, it is clear the devil was the first liar.

  John 8.44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
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  36

  Big News: August English Watchtower released on servers

  by ukpimo in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  big news.

  just in from a friend who is fading.. disfellowshipping will no longer be a term used by jws.

  study article 35, paragraph 4 footnote says this:.

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  slimboyfat

  Have the old shunning videos been taken down from the website?

  Are people keeping copies for the record?
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  36

  Big News: August English Watchtower released on servers

  by ukpimo in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  big news.

  just in from a friend who is fading.. disfellowshipping will no longer be a term used by jws.

  study article 35, paragraph 4 footnote says this:.

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  slimboyfat

  (looks like wt pulled the english august 2024 magazine off the servers...)
  guess they can't make up their minds what kinda macaroni to serve

  I hope people have got copies of it, and the foreign language editions, so we can compare them with whatever is finally released?
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  36

  Big News: August English Watchtower released on servers

  by ukpimo in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  big news.

  just in from a friend who is fading.. disfellowshipping will no longer be a term used by jws.

  study article 35, paragraph 4 footnote says this:.

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  slimboyfat

  What lie did the devil ever tell? None as far as I can see.

  “You won’t die.” Was the big one.

  I find your comment confusing, because if you are allowing for the narrative details of the Bible as a premise for the question in the first place, then I don’t see how it’s possible to deny that Adam and Eve actually died, and that the statement that they wouldn’t die was therefore a lie. Or what are you saying?

  If you are not using the narrative as the premise of the question, then I don’t know what is the point of saying the devil has never told a lie. He’s never done anything if he doesn’t exist.
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  36

  Big News: August English Watchtower released on servers

  by ukpimo in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  big news.

  just in from a friend who is fading.. disfellowshipping will no longer be a term used by jws.

  study article 35, paragraph 4 footnote says this:.

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  slimboyfat

  I don’t see it on the website yet. What does it mean “released on servers”?

  Has any change been made to an earlier version of the magazine that would explain the delay in publication?

  Have they removed the word disfellowshipping but not the practice? Or are they trying to water the whole thing down?

  It seems a complicated situation but he is my speculation. (We’re allowed to speculate here.)

  I suspect that the GB is divided over whether they want to significantly downgrade the practice of shunning or whether they just want to tinker with the wording and keep shunning practice in place as far as possible. The delay in publication may be a result of wrangling over the precise wording that would reflect either a significant change of policy or otherwise simply continue the practice under a different guise. I suspect the reformers will probably prevail in the end and, whatever the precise wording of this particular Watchtower, future articles, and JWs on the ground, will reduce the level of shunning to a significant extent.

  If that’s the case, then the hardline shunning videos at the conventions of the past 10 years or so do seem a bit jarring in retrospect. I wonder if they will address that at all, or come out with a sort of antidote non-shunning video for example, minus the mea culpa, which they are of course not very good at.
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  25

  Do we have "original" indipendent documents proving that Rutherford was an alcoholic?

  by psyco in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i was wondering if you could prove with "original" independent documents that rutherford was an alcoholic.... .

  i read penton, but since he is a former jw he could not be considered an independent source.... .

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  slimboyfat

  I don’t think so. A source commonly cited is Olin Moyle, who became antagonistic toward Rutherford, after having served JWs as their lawyer. There are a couple of letters he wrote and there is a court case at which Fred Franz and others gave testimony, available online.

  Some have claimed to present photos of Rutherford and associates drunk, also probably still online somewhere. Others have disputed this is what they show. Judge for yourself.

  There is circumstantial evidence that Rutherford was at least pro-drink during the Prohibition era, as he described prohibition as Satanic in WT literature of the period. There are claims that JWs illegallly smuggled alcohol from Canada during Prohibition, but I can’t remember the source or the basis for that.

  It seems to me entirely plausible that Rutherford was a hard drinker but I haven’t seen solid evidence for it.

  
  
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  2910

  It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

  by Simon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

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  slimboyfat

  On the other hand, perhaps indifference is what he’d hate most, and his ultimate just deserts as his support drifts ever downward.