Posts by slimboyfat

2908

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

slimboyfat

Good to know he doesn’t endorse the owner of X, that’s the kind of moral leadership we need. 👍

16

Explanation for changes to Disfellowshipping rules at Annual Meeting

by Listener in

wally, a youtuber from jw thoughts highlighted something that was said by kenneth cook jnr in the annual meeting.

he thinks it may be removed before they publish the agm.

i doubt we would see it in writing either.. part of kenneth's talk was about the changes regarding disfellowshipping and the clip from jw thoughts youtube shows him saying -.

slimboyfat

It’s a confusing mess. I don’t think JWs know if they are coming or going with the DFing rules now.

164

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

slimboyfat

The third point is true, and I don’t know that WT ever stated the first two. Individual JWs may have said those first two points, but people can say all sorts of stuff.

164

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

slimboyfat

I wonder how you explain away this passage from Justin Martyr. The obvious conclusion is that Justin’s views are incompatible with the later Trinity doctrine, and compatible with JW view that Jesus is an angel and was created by God, but I guess you have a way of neutralising the straightforward meaning here?

Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught. First Apology 6

164

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

slimboyfat

The difference between Jesus and the mythical examples is that Jesus was a historical person. I don’t know what’s so enigmatic about pointing out the mainstream view. It’s a mainstream view that Jesus is distinct from and subordinate to God in Paul’s theology. The specific view of Jesus as an angel in Paul was not as common when Sanders wrote that article as it is now. It has been gaining ground in the work of scholars such as Charles Gieschen (on Gal 4.14), Susan Garrett (Jesus is “no ordinary angel” in the NT generally), Bart Ehrman, John Ashton and Charles Talbert (both support Martin Werner’s angel Christology), Paul Holloway and Emily Wasserman (both see Jesus as an angel in Phil 2).

164

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

slimboyfat

The exaltation of Christ in Philippians 2:9-11 is not an indication that He was elevated from a lower status to a higher one in the divine hierarchy.

I think in any reasonable reading of Philippians 2.9-11 Jesus is elevated to superior position. I know that’s problematic for Trinitarian dogma but Paul didn’t know anything about the Trinity and it shows.

6 who, though he existed in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
assuming human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a human,
8 he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death—
even death on a cross.

9 Therefore God exalted him even more highly
and gave him the name
that is above every other name,
10 so that at the name given to Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

slimboyfat

Yes, I read The Blind Watchmaker in 1999 on the banks of the river Ness and it convinced me evolution is likely true. The book even mentions JWs a couple of times and their misunderstanding or misrepresentation of evolution. I still think evolution is probably true but it’s not as slam dunk as I thought it was then. If evolution is true then it doesn’t necessarily point to a purely materialist reality in any case (see Mind and Cosmos by Thomas Nagel) and might actually be a good argument in favour of God’s existence. (See the argument from evolution by Alvin Plantinga)

164

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

slimboyfat

Maybe, although most critical scholars don’t think Paul wrote Colossians.

In terms of Paul’s view of Jesus’s prehuman existence, by far the best indication is Phil 2.5-11, while 1 Cor 8.4-6, 2 Cor 8.9, and a few other passages offer some insight.

In Philippians 2, if we accept that Paul is here referring to Jesus’s prehuman existence, as most scholars do, I think the JW reading of the passage makes the best sense by far. In this passage, Jesus is clearly a heavenly being who is distinct from and subject to God. Instead of trying to usurp God’s position, with an implied contrast with either Adam or Satan, or both, he chose to come to earth as a human, and then he humbled himself even to the point of death. For that reason, God rewarded him and exalted him to a higher position than he originally had and, reflecting Jesus’s humility, this is all still to the glory of God, not himself. This passage so clearly shows that Jesus is a spirit being who is subordinate to God that trinitarians tie themselves in all sorts of knots trying to get it to say something else. It doesn’t flat out say that Jesus is an angel, but what is the name for a heavenly being that is subject to God and does his will? It seems pretty clear. One of the best treatments of the passage I’ve come across is this article by Jack Sanders. I can send a pdf if anyone wants to access it, it let me know.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3263720

164

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

slimboyfat

That’s a great quote from Moloney, and the point appears to be spot on. Whatever the author of the gospel of John intended us to think about the Word, the one thing that is clear is that he is distinguished from God. Not merely distinguished from “God the Father”, but from “God”. In any case, when Bible writers use the phrase “God the Father” they appear to use the phrase synonymously and interchangeably with “God”. Later, when the Trinity doctrine was formulated, trinitarians retrospectively imposed a new definition on the “God the Father” to mean one person of the tri-personal deity. On top of that, in many verses that say simply “God”, they say it must mean “God the Father” under their trinitarian definition of that phrase. Needless to say, none of this is ever stated in the Bible because the Bible writers knew nothing about it. When they wrote “God” they meant God, and when John said “the Word was with God”, by every normal use of language he was clearly stating that the Word was distinguished from God.

164

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

slimboyfat

Even a busted clock is right twice a day.

Are you saying JWs just randomly stumbled upon a Christology that is closer to what many recent scholars have determined was the early Christian view? It has nothing to do with their particular history or approach to the texts, as Jason BeDuhn argued? I suppose it could be completely random, but when there are explanations for something, why resort to randomness instead? Like if somebody got a good result in their exams, you could say it was a multiple choice exam therefore their answers could have been randomly correct. I suppose so, could be, we can’t rule it out, but why? Other explanations are inherently more likely, and more relevant, such as indications the person studied, or they cheated, or whatever. What’s the point of resorting to randomness as an explanation?