Maybe I took this purple pill you speak of. Put it down to my colour blindness 😎
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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15
JWlite can be the purple pill
by Teddnzo ini really like the red pill analogy in the matrix.
the one guy wishes he didn’t take the red pill and would have preferred to take the blue pill.. many used to be pimi which is the blue pill and then they wake up to the fact that the gb are not who they claim to be which is taking the red pill.. they go through conflict and confusion as to what to believe now?
does god exist?
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152
Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?
by slimboyfat ini would suggest:.
the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.
the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.
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slimboyfat
aqwsed12345, you write:
Peter Schäfer's Two Gods in Heaven highlights a distinct idea in some strands of Jewish thought, but this concept cannot be directly applied to early Christian understanding of Jesus.
Yes, Shäfer argues there is a direct link between the subordinate god in Judaism and Jesus in Christianity:
The proximity of binitarian ideas of pre-Christian ancient Judaism to thoughts and images as encountered in the New Testament is obvious. This is not merely a matter of parallels, much less equations, but rather of the fundamental insight that Second Temple Judaism prepared the stock on which the New Testament could draw, The fact that this, apart from many other themes, also applies to the notion of a "second" God next to the "first" God is an insight that is only slowly beginning to gain acceptance.
Peter Schâfer, Two Gods in Heaven: Jewish Concepts of God in Antiquity (2020), page 135 and 136
Later, you write:
the New Testament never presents Jesus as a mere intermediary or lesser god.
Yes, Jesus is always presented as distinct and subordinate to God in the NT.
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152
Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?
by slimboyfat ini would suggest:.
the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.
the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.
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slimboyfat
peacefulpete, I read Richard Carrier’s books when they came out as I was interested in mythicism for a while. (Narkissos on this forum had mythicist leanings and he led me part way down that path.) Carrier’s books are pretty dismal. Have you read them? The one on Bayes theory was convoluted and unconvincing that this is a viable method for doing history. Neverhelss, I got the sequel ‘On the Historicity’ too, when it was published, to much fanfare. On the positive side it covers a lots of material and sources, but it’s hard going and not very rewarding. The best explanation for why Jesus had brothers running around in the first century, for example, is quite simply that Jesus was a real person who had siblings. Carrier works incredibly hard to offer other explanations but they are pretty farfetched. Robert Price and Earl Doherty are better authors on mythicism. Price’s The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man is an entertaining read - he can make any topic entertaining, but he has a fetish for outlandish theories too. I’ve got a book by Dennis R. McDonald and he makes a good case for some of the gospel stories being based on Greek epics, but this doesn’t show there was no Jesus at all. Bill Darlison is a British mythicist who makes some interesting arguments. I know Bill a little through the Unitarians and he certainly has interesting things to say. Ultimately, other scholars I respect, such as Mark Goodacre and James McGrath, have offered effective responses to Carrier that can be found online. Mythicism remains incredibly fringe among scholars and Carrier has not made a dent on that. (It was a liberal British NT scholar who likened it to flat earth to me in conversation.) If anything, Carrier’s turgid prose, vindictive debating style, and putrid personality (reminds me of LE) has set the ‘cause of mythicism’ back, if anything.
The most readable of Carrier’s books is the one with the silly title Jesus from Outer Space. For what it’s worth, in that book Carrier argues for an original Christian Jesus that’s strikingly similar to JW theology, although I wouldn’t quote him on that because scholars don’t take him seriously, and it’s not the result of original research, he is just offering a colourful summary of other scholars on early Christology.
The evidence is amply secure that the original story the Christians taught was that Jesus was God's supreme archangel, eternal high priest of God's celestial temple, his firstborn creation and adopted son, viceroy of the universe, and the original superbeing who carried out all of God's other acts of creation and that he ruled the resulting cosmos on God's behalf. A being whom Philo reveals Jews already believed in.
Richard Carrier, Jesus From Outer Space (2020), page 32.
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152
Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?
by slimboyfat ini would suggest:.
the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.
the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.
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slimboyfat
peacefulpete, your second paragraph seems to suggest a mythicist interpretation of early Christianity. Mythicism is rejected by scholars as being almost on a par with flat-earth theories.
Your first paragraph is correct that early Christians drew on concepts Jews were already familiar with to make sense of who Jesus was, such as Wisdom, Logos, Son of Man, and so on. These pointed to a ‘second god’ who was distinct from and subject to God. As scholar of ancient Judaism, Peter Shäfer describes it:
The two Gods of ancient Judaism are not antagonistic powers fighting against each other but instead rule peacefully with and next to one another. This is of course always on the assumption that one of the two is the ancestral "first" (as a rule, older) God of higher rank, who generously makes space in heaven next to and beneath him for the second (as a rule, younger) God.
Peter Schâfer, Two Gods in Heaven: Jewish Concepts of God in Antiquity (2020), page 135.
For the early Christians, as these concepts were applied to Jesus, he remained distinct and subordinate to God, as New Testament scholar John Ziesler explains (when discussing Philippians 2:5–11):
The ruling function that belongs properly to Yahweh alone is now Christ's also; he is cosmic Lord and as such receives the honour that hitherto has been given only to Yahweh.
Yet before we rashly conclude that the two have simply become identified, we must note that the element of subordination remains. It all happens, even the exaltation of Christ, 'to the glory of God the Father' (v. 11), and Christ does not exalt himself but is exalted by God and is given the title 'Lord' by him (v. 9). Christ has become the bearer of the powers of God and the recipient of divine homage (v. 10), but is still distinct from him and subject to him.John Ziesler, Pauline Christianity (1990), page 46.
It was not until subsequent centuries that Jesus was conflated with God and eventually made part of a Trinity of equals. Geza Vermes explains the process this way:
By the start of the fourth century the church, although not wholly ready, was pressed to make up her mind. The divine quality of Christ, the Son of God, his closeness to God the Father, his pre-existence and role in the creation of the universe were generally agreed by all the leading thinkers. They also agreed on a lack of equality between the Father and the Son. Even Origen was adamant: the Father was ‘the God', the Son was only 'God'; he was ‘second God', placing himself below the Master of the universe. Every single mouthpiece of Christian tradition from Paul and John to Origen firmly held that the Father was in some way above the Son. The ante-Nicene church was ‘subordinationist' and did not believe in the full co-equality and co-eternity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit …
All the evidence we possess of nearly three centuries of theological thinking on the subject would suggest that, after some give and take, a creed quietly voicing Arius' ideas would have commanded a substantial majority among the bishops assembled at Nicaea, Yet the dogma of consubstantiality (homoousia) triumphed, no doubt thanks to the clever politicking of the party led by Bishop Alexander and Athanasius, which succeeded in winning over to their side the all-powerful emperor. After some ebbing and flowing, belief in the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father ultimately prevailed in the fourth-century church, and the profession of this belief became the authenticating stamp of post-Nicene Christianity.
Yet it is impossible to ignore the colossal difference between the Christ concept of Nicaea and the Christology that preceded the council. The idea of consubstantiality never occurred to any of the leading representatives of Christianity prior to 325; it would have indeed sounded anathema. By contrast, after 325 the claim of inequality between Father and Son amounted to heresy.
Geza Vermes, Christian Beginnings: From Nazareth to Nicaea, AD 30–325 (2013), pages 241 and 242.
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2910
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)
by Simon inuh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
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slimboyfat
Is it a “special” convention or an “international” convention in Zagreb? Because they are classed as two different things, as explained in a recent video.
Special conventions: happen every year in around 15 locations worldwide and have slightly bigger venues than regular conventions, 10-20,000 in attendance, including 2-3000 foreign delegates from around the world
International conventions: happen every 5 years, with 20,000+ (or 30-40,000, visual and scripts differ) in attendance, 5000 delegates from around the world
It’s not explained in the video whether “special” as well as international conventions regularly have GB members in attendance, which is perhaps the most relevant factor for making is a big deal or not.
https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/SeriesOrgAccomplishments/pub-com-rep23_5_VIDEO
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2910
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)
by Simon inuh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
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slimboyfat
Presumably there are conventions in Zagreb every year. A special convention is just a convention with the word special in front of it. There will be a few extra people from elsewhere. I don’t know if that necessarily includes a GB member these days. Plus it will be in Croatian and LE apparently doesn’t speak Croatian.
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Lost aoul
by LostSoulUK inhi everyone, i just joined and i have been lost a long time, growing up i was a witness with my mum.
i walked away when i was older, did drugs, sex, travelling all my life never stopping anywhere more than 3 months my entire life, relationship after relationship, pain and hurt after pain and hurt.
i always felt like there was something missing, and tried to find what it was.
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40
2025 Convention Theme leak
by ukpimo inaccording to the next boe letter to be read at next week's midweek meetings in the united states,.
the theme of the convention for next year is.
pure worship.
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slimboyfat
The number of leaks is a pure riddy man
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40
2025 Convention Theme leak
by ukpimo inaccording to the next boe letter to be read at next week's midweek meetings in the united states,.
the theme of the convention for next year is.
pure worship.
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slimboyfat
The best convention ever! 😀
I actually think the convention this year was the best ever in terms of substance and presentation. They did a good job.
Maybe not as good as some of the historic conventions such as 1950 or 1958, in terms of pure spectacle or history, that would have been something.
I’ve heard it suggested that 1958 Polo/Yankee stadiums convention was the largest Christian meeting in history at around quarter of a million. Is that right?
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40
2025 Convention Theme leak
by ukpimo inaccording to the next boe letter to be read at next week's midweek meetings in the united states,.
the theme of the convention for next year is.
pure worship.
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slimboyfat
This is the name of the book about Ezekiel released a few years ago. Why are they going back to that? You’d think it would be a continuation of the gospel theme from this year as more episodes of the drama are released.