Posts by Etude

17

hanging onto old thought processes

by rebel8 in

as a jw child, i learned to use the following "logic":decide what you want to believe before you research or learn about it.

(at the time, it was whatever the wts told me to believe.

)when you come across anything that supports your belief, accept it.when you come across anything that refutes your belief, reject it.repeat steps 2-4 indefinitely.. as far as i recall, i pretty much realized this faulty thought process before i left the jws and stopped doing it.

Etude

Dorayakii:

You put forth a very interesting point. I felt and still feel at times (though rarely) the same as you describe, wanting to fend off an affront to my personal belief when someone challenges me. Although I have learned an effective way to deal with that and approach ideas more clearly, I had never thought about the reasons why someone, me, may feel that way until you presented the issue here.

I imagine that it's a natural tendency to feel protective and defensive when some part of our core belief is challenged. That very admission to myself makes me ease-off when I'm challenged and makes me question my own position. Then there are the teachings with which we have been inured. There's a reason why JWs and other cults repeat the same shit over and over again. Somehow, it bypasses the logical centers and becomes autonomic. I recall having a gut reaction and a curt reply when I was still a Witness and someone at the door would say something bad about Charles T. Russell (obviously they knew more about him than I did at the time). I remember being aware of the moment and being slightly surprised at my reaction. I suppose that such behavior is also a natural consequence of being a JW or any group that uses the same tactics.

I also think that a person's experience, how he or she was shaped mentally and not necessarily by a cult, determines their inclination to react poorly at being intellectually spanked. I face that constantly with good friends that I ride motorcycles with but can't carry on a dialog over E-mail on subjects like religion or politics without being totally polarized. Like you, I've learned to keep quite when needed long enough to determine if what was said is even worth a response. If it is, most of the time it's because the person challenged me sufficiently to evoke ideas that are worth exchanging. Other times, it's because that person needs to be either more informed or dressed down. I only take the gloves off with my friends, though.

After being so certain about what the future would hold when I was a JW and after being so devastatingly deceived, I've come to be in a place where I can sincerely doubt everything. I feel very much like Descartes: I know I exists ("Cogito ergo sum"), but I'm not too sure about you or anyone else. I believe you exist along with the rest of the world as I perceive it, but I can't prove it. That premise makes me less assailable and more accepting. Old habits die hard, they say. So, I may slip up once in a while.

Etude.

17

hanging onto old thought processes

by rebel8 in

as a jw child, i learned to use the following "logic":decide what you want to believe before you research or learn about it.

(at the time, it was whatever the wts told me to believe.

)when you come across anything that supports your belief, accept it.when you come across anything that refutes your belief, reject it.repeat steps 2-4 indefinitely.. as far as i recall, i pretty much realized this faulty thought process before i left the jws and stopped doing it.

Etude

Rebel8:

Besides the main articles, I loved the "Mathematical Games" in Scientific American. I think that's what it was called when Gardner used to write for it. Then he passed the torch to Hofstadter. Years before, I had read a tome called "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Hofstadter and realized that it was the same guy on the S.A. column. That book got me thinking about thinking and what the process is that makes us discover and understand relationships between objects and between ideas.

I also read Descartes (The Method...) and that was as close to philosophy as I got. Later I had a bit of exposure to Berkley (Cause and Effect). My approach to philosophy comes from a different angle. I read Einstein's writings on Relativity with a foreword by Neils Bohr and realized that science does not answer all the questions. Now I needed to go beyond and come up with plausible explanations. The main thing I'm proud of that I garnered from such investigations is that it's OK if the answer is "I don't know". I'm not a fan of psychology, particularly analysis (there's a lot of crock there), although I see the importance of it when it comes to identifying motivators in human behavior.

Regarding the military, actually, I just lucked out. Because of my JW successful indoctrination, I was not even willing to accept "alternative service" (ex. working at a military hospital). That means that I would have had to leave the country or go to jail. I was in the lottery system and got number 18. There was no chance I wasn't going to be called. As it turned out, after filing as a conscientious objector and appearing before the local and appeal boards on several occasions, my physical test was not good enough and I received a 4F classification. I didn't have anything wrong with me, but I think the fact that I was just getting over a bad cold when I took the test affected the results.

College was a bit unusual for me. Because I was older than most students and less gullible about life after the Bethel experience, it seemed easier and was willing to challenge my professors about what they were teaching. On one occasion, in a Biology class, one student told me to sit down and shut up, when I asked the professor a question, because I was taking up the class' time. I told him that I would not because I went there to learn to think and that if all he wanted was to have some facts along with a piece of paper that said he graduated, I wanted more and I was not about to give it up. I had the respect of my professor after that. I concentrated in Mathematics and Music.

Etude.

17

hanging onto old thought processes

by rebel8 in

as a jw child, i learned to use the following "logic":decide what you want to believe before you research or learn about it.

(at the time, it was whatever the wts told me to believe.

)when you come across anything that supports your belief, accept it.when you come across anything that refutes your belief, reject it.repeat steps 2-4 indefinitely.. as far as i recall, i pretty much realized this faulty thought process before i left the jws and stopped doing it.

Etude

rebel8: I understand. Your experience has a lot of merit. The path you found for achieving a better way of thinking involved a formal method that required academic discipline.

It was different for me. I learned about the Scientific Method in High School. I graduated in 1970 and was deep into the "Borg". I faced going to jail for not going to the Army and Viet Nam. I didn't go to college until 1978 and I was still a Witness attending meetings. In the mean time (right after High School), I "pioneered", managed to spend 2 and a half years in Bethel, and most importantly, I read like crazy. I read heavy stuff (Cosmology, Quantum Physics, Biology, etc). The important thing I noticed was the language used in magazines like Scientific American and other literature. I learned how far one could go without stepping out of a formalism that would negate one's argument or conclusions.

I suppose that kind of criticality is what eventually led me to leave Bethel (I had a lot of issues there) until I could bring myself to leave the Organization altogether. Of course, I didn't know too many people who would attend college after going to Bethel and still attended meetings. I caught a little hell for it and eventually, I just left NY and headed West where I managed to get lost.

I grant you this: I took a Logic class once that enlightened me in a way I would not have conceived, at least not as concretely. I was finally able to put names to ideas I knew but could not make more material. The formality of Logic has given me a weapon that I can use to combat the ill-formed opinions of my rabidly political friends. I wish everyone was forced to take such a lesson in a formal setting. I value formal education highly, but I realize that it's not the only way to achieve higher reasoning powers and intellectual discrimination. I've known individuals with high degrees who can't wipe their asses without a set of instructions. On the other hand, there are many famous scientists and discoverers who were "self-taught" and achieved things important enough to have a place in history (Thomas Edison, Charles Babbage, Michael Faraday). Of course it's not so easy today. I can't imagine (unless there's an unusual gift) that someone can just jump into some scientific discipline without the benefit of formal education. Scientific ideas and technology are just too complicated today. I don't think that's true regarding the Arts (music, painting, etc). Unfortunately, for the rest of us, formal education, although it's not a guarantee, is our best bet.

Whichever way it's achieved, there's no doubt that thinking clearly is a most important weapon to defeat false information specially that which comes from cults. The WTBTS had a ring of truth for me, way back when, and I can see why they don't want their followers to obtain higher education. I don't think that they're afraid they'll be found out. I think that they just couldn't handle the questions and arguments from "educated" people that would reveal their "Swiss cheese" universe.

Etude.

17

hanging onto old thought processes

by rebel8 in

as a jw child, i learned to use the following "logic":decide what you want to believe before you research or learn about it.

(at the time, it was whatever the wts told me to believe.

)when you come across anything that supports your belief, accept it.when you come across anything that refutes your belief, reject it.repeat steps 2-4 indefinitely.. as far as i recall, i pretty much realized this faulty thought process before i left the jws and stopped doing it.

Etude

"I went to college several years later, which just expanded my already existing ability to use critical thinking."

Rebel8, you're onto something there. Bolh you and Zagor picked an excellent topic. You already concede that you had the ability to think critically. It's possible you would have come to the same conclusions had you not gone to college. What it boils down to is the individual. That's why the whole world is not in one cult or another (although, that's debatable). Personally, I have found many a "free thinker" and I have determined that I'm thinking critically now more than ever.

I recently wrote about my sister (No. 6) who is now (thread here and here) recently escaping "The Village". I always thought of her as intelligent, but realized that she as well as other individuals somehow manage to suppress their logical instincts and rationalize everything in order to retain their illusion. That's the power of emotion. However, it only goes so far. That's why she has finally awaken.

It has nothing to do with formal education, unless you count the process of "life-long learning". That's when someone does not stop reading and seeking out knowledge on their own without the benefit of formal education. Eventually, you're going to do something with it.

Zagor: I read your thread and there are many good points in it. I think you may be describing an actual mechanism, what you call cognitive vacuum, which explains how cults get in your head in the first place. I just can't help but think why one person falls for it and another doesn't. To me, it all comes down to the individual, regardless of their educational level. Perhaps some of us have not developed to the point of reasoning with sufficient conviction to say: "Hey, wait a minute there." I can see where the power of emotions can dominate what one may describe as "that little voice in your head" that tells you otherwise.

In that thread I started a about my sister, I may not have mentioned how she rationalized and actually was conscious enough to suppress her ideas because she thought that it was something she needed to do in order to become what she had envisioned. Because of that, I don't think everyone who falls for a cult simply "vacates" and accepts everything, line, hook and sinker. Many have to accommodate their thinking in order to make it fit their belief system and at the same time satisfy some deep seated desire. That makes clear to me the actions of the JW researcher you speak about. The evidence is there, but he chooses to interpret it another way, one that conforms with his belief system. It may be logical, but based on false premises, it will lead to the wrong conclusion.

That is no different than what happens in any other population. I have lots of friends with whom I correspond who have a totally skewed view when it comes to political subjects. They send out these E-mails blasting somebody or other and I just calmly and effectively show them research that shows they're full of shit. One such fact I discovered was of a poll taken six months after the infamous 9/11 event which showed that more than 70% of the American people believed that Iraq was responsible for the attacks on N.Y., PA, and the Pentagon. Not much critical thinking going on there. And guess who was responsible for that little idea?

The scientific community is no different. Recently, my sister sent me an article from the N.Y. Times that referred to a scientist's claim that OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) may be cause by a strep virus (based on a statistical study of children who had strep and have OCD). In the same article, another scientist says that if you study children who fell out of a tree and broke a bone, you will also find a population that has OCD. The conclusion would be that falling out of trees can cause OCD. I know that this one boils down to the interpretation that the scientist is leaning toward. But I also know that at times it comes down to intellectual integrity and how fair-minded (how much of a critical thinker) the scientist is. It's all relative but it's still an individual endeavor.

Etude.

22

Memories of your JW Youth

by Nosferatu in

after reading the responses to amazing1914's recent post, i decided this would be a great thread to start.

please share some of your memories!.

when my mother first became a jw, i was very sporatic with meeting attendance.

Etude

Nosferatu, your story is really sad. Where did you live? What was your environment like? The only thing to regret about that is that you were associated with the Witnesses at all. If you hadn't, you might have "broken out" and become what you needed to be a lot sooner in order to stop the abuse and to not put up with all that crap.

I was lucky. I was relatively popular and went to a lot of parties (we called them get-togethers) with the Witnesses. The problem was that I wouldn't have gotten laid if an orgasm ran me over. I was horny enough but I was too repressed by my parents (it had to do with my native culture) and would imagine that the world would come to an end if I embarrassed them. Looking back, I wish I had put my foot (or any other part of my body) in it and suffer the consequences. I could have saved myself years of a really f'd up time being a Witness.

My dad was not a Witness but he was supportive. He didn't push, though. Even so, he was very strict in my younger years. I wish he'd care enough, instead of just sitting on the fence, and pushed me to go to college instead of pioneering after graduating from High School.

It does sound to me like your dad was trying to be saved vicariously. He seems to be one of those do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do kinda guys. You should have called him on it. But, I realize that that might have gotten you another beating. I would have taken it. Anyway, it's all water under the bridge. Revel in your good memories and screw the bad ones. Think about the person you are now and what worth you have that is laudable. Hang tough.

Etude.

14

Pipe bomb at Bethel.

by Etude in

does anyone remember the incident that happened back in the summer of 1974 at what was called the "squibb" building at bethel where a pipe bomb detonated at one of the doors just under the bridge that spanned the complex across columbia heights?

i was at bethel at the time and i even have a picture of two nypd cops standing in front of the scene the day after (if i can only find the picture).

i was thinking of posting it on this forum but i don't know how.

Etude

Does anyone remember the incident that happened back in the summer of 1974 at what was called the "Squibb" building at Bethel where a pipe bomb detonated at one of the doors just under the bridge that spanned the complex across Columbia Heights? I was at Bethel at the time and I even have a picture of two NYPD cops standing in front of the scene the day after (if I can only find the picture). I was thinking of posting it on this forum but I don't know how. The incident was certainly not publicized in the Watchtower literature, but it made the usual underground circuit. I don't know what became of the incident or if they ever found out who did it. I wouldn't put it past anyone in the Organization at the time to blame it on apostates. Anyway, somebody was pissed off or some kids were putting on a dangerous prank. I remember serving as night watchman at the building across the street from the bomb site. It was not a good stint. If you don't remember this, or even if you do, do you know of any other similar incidents where an "attack" was made on the Society's property?

Etude.

34

Watchtower and UN?

by rambaldi in

is this issue of the watchtower being part of the un department of public information of any significance?

at the district conventions of jehovahs witnesses there are flags of the united states and other sovereign government such as states or other countries hanging from the buildings.

the governing body and the watchtower society rent buildings which become the equivalent of kingdom halls for the weekend.

Etude

I've noticed that Rimbaldi has not made any comebacks to all that's been said here, especially about the facts that have been stated. Rambaldi, if you're still trolling, please note that I'm reaching deep into my ex-JW mindset in order to respond in a way you would understand.

1. The difference between going to a stadium for a district or international assembly that has U.S. or other flags floating above or on a stage and joining the U.N. is that the stadium and/or its representatives are not an organization that the Watchtower has criticized for many years and identified as the most abominable institution according God. Something you would understand is the example that the Society liked to use a lot (at least in my time there) regarding Jehu (2 Kings chap. 10). Jehu went to the people of Sama'ria (whom he had been killing all along) and said that Ahab (the king whom Jehu had also slain) had served Ba'al well but that he would serve Ba'al even more (a lying trick). So he asked that all the prophets, priests and worshipers of Ba'al come to the temple for a big old party. After they assembled he went in with Jehon'adab and asked him to make sure there were no worshipers of Jehovah in the temple. Then Jehu actually went in and made sacrifices to Ba'al (even if he wasn't sincere, that brings up a lot of questions) and afterwards went out and told the 80 men he had stationed outside to slaughter everyone at the peril of their own lives if they let anyone escape.

The moral of the story, as the Society likes to use it, is that we should not identify ourselves with any pagan or political organization in any way for fear that we might be confused and be "slaughtered" when the day of reckoning comes. I was so influenced by the constant emphasis of such an example that I refused to perform alternative service in the military for fear that just by being in a military hospital, I would somehow be associated with the government and put my spirituality in peril. That was no misinterpretation on my part. The Watchtower wanted you to act accordingly.

2. Speaking of association, are you not aware of what happened in Malawi in the 70s? The government required all citizens to have a card that said you belonged to a political party. If just having a piece of paper that says something with which you may or may not agree is the law or the rule, I compare that to your example of being in a building where a goverment flag is required to be displayed. After all, it's just a piece of paper (cloth), right? But nooooo! The Society insisted that "true Christians" could not bear that card (even if they didn't "honor" it) because it sent a message that they somehow supported the government. Consequently, a lot of innocent people died and many women were savegely raped.

3. You may also not be aware of a lawsuit that was brought by a Witness in the state of New Hampshire and decided on by David Souter (now in the US Supreme Court). Souter ruled against the Witness' objection to have a New Hampshire license plate that had a patriotic slogan. The Witness felt he could not possibly ride around with such a slogan because his allegiance was to God. Apparently, Souter's decision was reversed on appeal and I don't know what happened to the case. Regardless of the outcome, that example is exactly parallel to the one you state regarding a flag in a public gathering place for a Witness assembly. Don't you see the connection regarding loyalty and association with political and religious institutions that has been clearly inculcated by the Watchtower Society into its members? Do you think the Watchtower Society should do any less regarding the U.N?

The next principle to consider is: How does the actions of an individual working at the Watchtower Society affect the organization? It doesn’t. The organization is lead by Jesus Christ through the Governing Body. I don’t recall the governing body having a vote on the matter and then publishing the matter to the organization. So…

4.Now please, don't try to obfuscate the issue by making a distinction between the Governing Body (the Organization) and the Watchtower Society. Have you never wondered who controls whom? Yes, the Watchtower Society is a legal tangible entity. But you know that it represents the interests of the Jehovah's Witnesses whose Governing Body calls the shots. Do you think anyone in control was unaware of the decision to become an NGO? If the implications were not so significant, why pull out when it was discovered and publicized? Why not continue as a member and simply say: "We're just trying to get information." Do you really believe that there's information the Watchtower Society needs from the U.N. that can't be obtained from other sources and requires a membership as an NGO? If you do, I have several impressive bridges, strategically located in major urban areas with huge potential for profits that are available for your investment.

Etude.

26

New Release: Bible Teach book and new light on 1914

by JoeGeneration in

"new light!

(looking for opinions on this line of reasoning)

the basis for doing away with the 1914 doctrine may have been laid in this new book.

Etude

Now, didn't the Organization face a huge shift in doctrine in the early twenties (or was it the thirties) of this type of significance? Please forgive me for not having clear details. I'm sure there are some of you who know more about this stuff. As I recall reading, it had to do with the fact that many didn't agree with the idea that Rutherford (or Russell) was the "Faithful and Discrete Slave". In that case, this issue caused a noticeable chasm and those that dissented actually broke away and became the "apostate" class in the eyes of the "Organization" (I think they formed their own sect). The old literature abounds with comments and, of course, blame towards those people of the apostate class that believed that Rutherford (or was it Russell) was NOT the "Faithful and Discrete Slave". Somewhere along the line, it turns out that the apostates were right, but that didn't offer any reconciliation. In later publications, I noticed their convenient omission to mention the reason why those former "Bible Students" became apostates. They just continue to blast them by vaguely suggesting that they chose not to follow Jehovah's Organization.

Regarding the issue under discussion, I think they will sweep any mention of it under the rug until the collective memory of those that remain fades away. Then they'll come up with another explanation, one that does not include any mention of the 1914 date or the generation of that day and find some other issue to stress the urgency of a day of reckoning, Armageddon. Remember that they had other dates for "the Lord's coming", one of them being in the 1930s. There's nothing new here. They did it before, changed their tune, and they'll keep doing it again and again. Their only hope is to keep their followers young and stupid, like some guys think they need to keep their women barefoot and pregnant. Unfortunately, the supply of ignorant and uneducated people is not likely to go down, even in a progressive country like ours. I was doing some research recently and found a poll that was conducted six months after 9/11 that showed that 70% of Americans believed that Iraq was responsible for the attack on the Twin Towers, the Pentagon and PA. Who was it that said: "No one ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American people"? Substitute "Americans" for any other people in that statement.

Etude.

15

Those wrong illustrations

by DannyBloem in

the jw literature likes so much illustrations.

some are really wrong.

for example the following illustration:.

Etude

Danny:

While I agree with you, I find that most analogies they present as arguments are much more subtle than the one you mentioned. First, my familiarity with this verbal analogy does not indicate that the owner of the house knew that the people he left in charge were bad people. He was simply ignorant of their potential and assumed that they would do the right thing. Secondly and thirdly, if the people inform the owner that they are devastating his family and house, one is free to assume that the owner can't really hurry back to resolve the issue and kick them out.

At the same time, I realize that the Watchtower has to appeal with their message to a large number of people. Unfortunately, this means appealing to the lowest common denominator. It's like my brother-in-law, who is a technical writer for military contracts, says: "You have to aim for an 8th grade education and no higher." What that means is you have to make things simple enough for people with limited education or understanding. That explains the serene pastoral depictions of the "new order" that I see in the magazines and books. If I had to live like that, petting lions and having eternal picnics on some meadow, I'd kill myself. What are they thinking? Well, even then, in paradise, I guess we won't be thinking about going to outer space or using any electronics.

The argument I made does not negate the deception that the Watchtower Society perpetrates. If the analogy is correct, how could God be so ignorant as to not know that the people he left in charge would do these bad deeds in and to his "home"? Why didn't he take relatively quick action as he did before when he caused the great flood instead of waiting for thousands of years? Assuming that God knew all along what was going to happen and had to let it happen (as in the case of Adam and Eve, you know free will and all that stuff), why let it go on when the issue had already been tested? Those are the questions in my mind!

What I'd been used to from the Organization was the blatantly skewed logic that they subjected me to. For example: While living at Bethel Farms, I had to be late to work in order to return keys to a car that I had "borrowed" from the farm office so that I could attend my congregation meeting the night before (my car was out of commission). I was written up (without my knowledge) for being late. After I found out, when I tried to explain that it was not possible for me to show up for work at 8:00 sharp because the farm office opened at the same time and they needed the keys first thing in the morning, a huge issue developed. It ended up with me going to assistant Factory Overseer, a cynical bastard, who eventually said to me: "The fact that others are on time means that you too can be on time." I said: "So, the fact that other people are late means I can be late?"

I faced such reasonings early on in my "career" at Bethel, but I shined them on do to my awe of the place. During an early orientation talk, we were told in the same instance that while we should consider Bethel our home and treat it as such, we could not do what we wanted, such as bring in furniture and put up pictures. Furthermore, we were told that before we set out to change things, we should remember that the "way" things are done at Bethel obviously had Jehovah's blessings and we shouldn't try to change anything. So, that meant (in one example) that if you were a press operator (supervisor), the other members of the team couldn't take turns and do your job. That left the operator to look pretty in front of the tours and receive all the limelight while meerly supervising the others and not doing the hard work (yes, there was a pecking order and no way to advance). That's the way Jehovah wanted it. A few years later, I learned that "Jehovah" didn't want that anymore and crews started to take turns at different jobs. But, not until after a lot of people left discontented and frustrated by going against "Jehovah". That kind of thinking really pisses me off because it's more insidious than some silly illustration, verbal or pictorial, aimed at child-like mentalities. I guess that's why they don't want you to get a higher education. That increases their chances to pull the wool over our eyes.

Etude.

11

How do I get the WT to delete my history?

by Etude in

does anyone know if it's at all possible to see what the wt has on you if you're not longer associated with them?

is it possible to request, maybe legally, that they expunge any information about you?

does it stay there forever?

Etude

Nina:

It's OK. I'm not aiming to destroy any information in particular by what I suggest. I want nothing more than to make it an exercise in challenging something that seems impenetrable. I know it may seem to you like quixotic quest, but I bet I can learn a lot from that. It's just a germ of an idea that could develop into something more.

I don't particularly care what they do with the information they have on me. You're right about how much information other entities have about me. I know all about that because I used to deal with information security. The difference is that at least I can guess their motives: usually they want to sell me something or they want my demographics in order to know how to market to me. If what they seek is identity theft, I've taken precautions for years to avoid that. If they just want to play big brother (should that be the government), I know how to pick my battles. So I don't care. I'm just amazed at what the Watchtower could possibly want with my information. Why keep it in perpetuity? Given the way they work, it's possible that they want to, I don't know, keep track of you? As I said, I really don't care, but it would be fun to try even if no one else has done it. So there's really nothing to let go and nothing to move on to for me in that respect.

I happen to have some time (I retired recently) and I thought it would be good fodder for writing a book or something like that. A friend of mine recently had an article about him published in Wired magazine after he created a ruse to catch one of those spamers that claim they have a hugh amount of money from the "Batunde" government they can't get to and they need you to recover it. He (my friend) played his scheme so well (just for fun, in his spare time) that he duped the money collector into meeting him on a street corner in Amsterdam, where my friend knew there was a web cam. He was able to take pictures of the guy and blow his cover.

I can understand if some people can't imagine how one would go about attacking the situation I described at the onset of this thread. However, I have already considered other more underhanded means which my personal ethics prevent me from carrying out. I don't think the WT has anything on me that I would be ashamed of. But it does irk me that someone keeps that information with no obvious socially or economically useful intent like the government would or your insurance company. Now, anything the Watchtower has on anyone is digitally stored and who knows how it can be used in the future. Remember the McCarthy era? No problem here. I think I can survive an inquisition, should it happen. Thank you for the zealousness in your comments, but it's OK. Believe me, I'm not loosing sleep over it.

Etude.