Posts by Etude

36

witnoid weddings

by katiekitten in

when i was a kid weddings in the troof were a big deal.

probably because they were the main if not only excuse for a knees up.

if someone was getting married they were not in control of the decisions about the reception.

Etude

katiekitten:

You sure can paint a picture. I've never been in England and I'm not familiar with the way things are done there, but I get it. I felt as if I'd witnessed it all. It funny and poignant.

My experience was quite different, although I never married in the JWs. I have two sisters, one older and one younger than I, and they had boyfriends at about the same time. They decided to have a double wedding. My sisters had never even dated anyone else (it was not allowed, and it was frowned in our Hispanic culture and at the KH), but on they went. My mother didn't plan everything, but she controlled a lot of it. My sisters weren't happy. My mother made the dresses. My parents paid for the whole thing, flowers, limos, reception. Coming from a Latin-American culture and living in N.Y. at the time, it was the rigour to have the reception at one of those facilities that were exclusively for parties, particularly weddings. It was a per-plate affair for nearly 75 people and, obviously, other people that attended the KH were not going to be invited over family and long time friends. We had the full service including a band.

Now, here's the kicker. My brother-in-law (who married my older sister) decided that he was going to put on a show. He didn't tell anyone including his new wife. What he did was to put on a biblical presentation like the ones they do at the assemblies, complete with costumes, pre-recorded dialog and music in the middle of the reception. Now, this place was good but it was essentially a big huge hall with some acoustic dividers (big huge folding doors) that separated or created other rooms. Next door, another wedding reception was going on. It was about that time we were going to get into it, you know, dancing to Salsa and Merengue and having drinks (most weddings I attended from the Spanish Congregation had music and good food), when out come trotting several people dressed in biblical garb mouthing off some unintelligible dialog that was being drowned by the talk of the people all around the room and the noise of the music from the party next door. I was so pissed!, my younger sister as well (she didn't know). I went to my older sister and asked her what the hell was going on and I could see the distress in her face. She was surprised too. Apparently, my brother-in-law did this not for her benefit, but for the benefit of his mother. What was he thinking? It wasn't her fricking wedding!

Yep, he hijacked the reception. Needless to say, we lost nearly 40 minutes putting up with that biblical drama crap. It wasn't appreciated by anyone that I talked to and the people there that were not Witnesses were, to say the least, not impressed. What an asshole! The band earned a good keep that day. They didn't have to play much at all.

Etude

31

at a pioneer's birthday party... YEAH THAT'S RIGHT!

by in a new york bethel minute in

a few days ago i had the privilege of being invited to a regular pioneer's birthday party.

i met her a couple of weeks ago, and even though she knows i am inactive and have serious doubts, we hit it off on a social level.

so that's why i was invited... .

Etude

Holy crap! I never thought I'd hear that. At first, I thought that bethel minute's account was of just a party and necessarily a b'day party. However, from what I'm reading, I guess it does go on. How can they get away with it without sanctions? I take it that the official view that it's a no no still stands. How is it possible? My JW sister (the oldest) never agreed with the idea that there was anything wrong with celebrating your birthday. In spite of that, I don't think she ever dared to celebrate one, since her husband is an elder and her two sons are serving in Bethel. I would appreciate any ammunition anybody can give me to lob her way.

Etude.

14

Pipe bomb at Bethel.

by Etude in

does anyone remember the incident that happened back in the summer of 1974 at what was called the "squibb" building at bethel where a pipe bomb detonated at one of the doors just under the bridge that spanned the complex across columbia heights?

i was at bethel at the time and i even have a picture of two nypd cops standing in front of the scene the day after (if i can only find the picture).

i was thinking of posting it on this forum but i don't know how.

Etude

That's great everyone. Many of you hit on the correct incident. I was just curious about this type of incident because it seems to take a bit more daring to attack the headquarters of the Organization and in that manner (I mean, as opposed to a prank by some kids). Wunce_wuz, obviously you were there at the same time I was. I guess I was a heavy sleeper and since I had lived in NY for many years, I was used to the sound of loud bangs and sirens. I also remember the one about the "dead body" but I didn't actually witness anything. I read some of the article you referenced and found a familiar name "Jerry Molohan". I wonder if he's still alive.

It should be no surprise that the neighborhood did not especially like the JWs. We weren't exactly friendly to them. In fact, as nice as that neighborhood was (is), it had to be one of the most hostile areas against the door-to-door work. The view at Bethel was that there were a bunch of "queers" (homosexuals) living there and the Society would not have anything to do with the preservation of the area. To them, the Brooklyn Heights Historical Society was practically the enemy. Anyway, with the way the Society was gobbling up real estate in that area and not paying taxes, it wasn't going to make many friends.

truthsetsonefree, now that you mention it I realize you're absolutely right about that door being the literature pick-up area. Damn it, I've repressed so much about those days, I need a kick in the head to bring it all back.

Etude.

17

hanging onto old thought processes

by rebel8 in

as a jw child, i learned to use the following "logic":decide what you want to believe before you research or learn about it.

(at the time, it was whatever the wts told me to believe.

)when you come across anything that supports your belief, accept it.when you come across anything that refutes your belief, reject it.repeat steps 2-4 indefinitely.. as far as i recall, i pretty much realized this faulty thought process before i left the jws and stopped doing it.

Etude

Dorayakii:

You put forth a very interesting point. I felt and still feel at times (though rarely) the same as you describe, wanting to fend off an affront to my personal belief when someone challenges me. Although I have learned an effective way to deal with that and approach ideas more clearly, I had never thought about the reasons why someone, me, may feel that way until you presented the issue here.

I imagine that it's a natural tendency to feel protective and defensive when some part of our core belief is challenged. That very admission to myself makes me ease-off when I'm challenged and makes me question my own position. Then there are the teachings with which we have been inured. There's a reason why JWs and other cults repeat the same shit over and over again. Somehow, it bypasses the logical centers and becomes autonomic. I recall having a gut reaction and a curt reply when I was still a Witness and someone at the door would say something bad about Charles T. Russell (obviously they knew more about him than I did at the time). I remember being aware of the moment and being slightly surprised at my reaction. I suppose that such behavior is also a natural consequence of being a JW or any group that uses the same tactics.

I also think that a person's experience, how he or she was shaped mentally and not necessarily by a cult, determines their inclination to react poorly at being intellectually spanked. I face that constantly with good friends that I ride motorcycles with but can't carry on a dialog over E-mail on subjects like religion or politics without being totally polarized. Like you, I've learned to keep quite when needed long enough to determine if what was said is even worth a response. If it is, most of the time it's because the person challenged me sufficiently to evoke ideas that are worth exchanging. Other times, it's because that person needs to be either more informed or dressed down. I only take the gloves off with my friends, though.

After being so certain about what the future would hold when I was a JW and after being so devastatingly deceived, I've come to be in a place where I can sincerely doubt everything. I feel very much like Descartes: I know I exists ("Cogito ergo sum"), but I'm not too sure about you or anyone else. I believe you exist along with the rest of the world as I perceive it, but I can't prove it. That premise makes me less assailable and more accepting. Old habits die hard, they say. So, I may slip up once in a while.

Etude.

17

hanging onto old thought processes

by rebel8 in

as a jw child, i learned to use the following "logic":decide what you want to believe before you research or learn about it.

(at the time, it was whatever the wts told me to believe.

)when you come across anything that supports your belief, accept it.when you come across anything that refutes your belief, reject it.repeat steps 2-4 indefinitely.. as far as i recall, i pretty much realized this faulty thought process before i left the jws and stopped doing it.

Etude

Rebel8:

Besides the main articles, I loved the "Mathematical Games" in Scientific American. I think that's what it was called when Gardner used to write for it. Then he passed the torch to Hofstadter. Years before, I had read a tome called "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Hofstadter and realized that it was the same guy on the S.A. column. That book got me thinking about thinking and what the process is that makes us discover and understand relationships between objects and between ideas.

I also read Descartes (The Method...) and that was as close to philosophy as I got. Later I had a bit of exposure to Berkley (Cause and Effect). My approach to philosophy comes from a different angle. I read Einstein's writings on Relativity with a foreword by Neils Bohr and realized that science does not answer all the questions. Now I needed to go beyond and come up with plausible explanations. The main thing I'm proud of that I garnered from such investigations is that it's OK if the answer is "I don't know". I'm not a fan of psychology, particularly analysis (there's a lot of crock there), although I see the importance of it when it comes to identifying motivators in human behavior.

Regarding the military, actually, I just lucked out. Because of my JW successful indoctrination, I was not even willing to accept "alternative service" (ex. working at a military hospital). That means that I would have had to leave the country or go to jail. I was in the lottery system and got number 18. There was no chance I wasn't going to be called. As it turned out, after filing as a conscientious objector and appearing before the local and appeal boards on several occasions, my physical test was not good enough and I received a 4F classification. I didn't have anything wrong with me, but I think the fact that I was just getting over a bad cold when I took the test affected the results.

College was a bit unusual for me. Because I was older than most students and less gullible about life after the Bethel experience, it seemed easier and was willing to challenge my professors about what they were teaching. On one occasion, in a Biology class, one student told me to sit down and shut up, when I asked the professor a question, because I was taking up the class' time. I told him that I would not because I went there to learn to think and that if all he wanted was to have some facts along with a piece of paper that said he graduated, I wanted more and I was not about to give it up. I had the respect of my professor after that. I concentrated in Mathematics and Music.

Etude.

17

hanging onto old thought processes

by rebel8 in

as a jw child, i learned to use the following "logic":decide what you want to believe before you research or learn about it.

(at the time, it was whatever the wts told me to believe.

)when you come across anything that supports your belief, accept it.when you come across anything that refutes your belief, reject it.repeat steps 2-4 indefinitely.. as far as i recall, i pretty much realized this faulty thought process before i left the jws and stopped doing it.

Etude

rebel8: I understand. Your experience has a lot of merit. The path you found for achieving a better way of thinking involved a formal method that required academic discipline.

It was different for me. I learned about the Scientific Method in High School. I graduated in 1970 and was deep into the "Borg". I faced going to jail for not going to the Army and Viet Nam. I didn't go to college until 1978 and I was still a Witness attending meetings. In the mean time (right after High School), I "pioneered", managed to spend 2 and a half years in Bethel, and most importantly, I read like crazy. I read heavy stuff (Cosmology, Quantum Physics, Biology, etc). The important thing I noticed was the language used in magazines like Scientific American and other literature. I learned how far one could go without stepping out of a formalism that would negate one's argument or conclusions.

I suppose that kind of criticality is what eventually led me to leave Bethel (I had a lot of issues there) until I could bring myself to leave the Organization altogether. Of course, I didn't know too many people who would attend college after going to Bethel and still attended meetings. I caught a little hell for it and eventually, I just left NY and headed West where I managed to get lost.

I grant you this: I took a Logic class once that enlightened me in a way I would not have conceived, at least not as concretely. I was finally able to put names to ideas I knew but could not make more material. The formality of Logic has given me a weapon that I can use to combat the ill-formed opinions of my rabidly political friends. I wish everyone was forced to take such a lesson in a formal setting. I value formal education highly, but I realize that it's not the only way to achieve higher reasoning powers and intellectual discrimination. I've known individuals with high degrees who can't wipe their asses without a set of instructions. On the other hand, there are many famous scientists and discoverers who were "self-taught" and achieved things important enough to have a place in history (Thomas Edison, Charles Babbage, Michael Faraday). Of course it's not so easy today. I can't imagine (unless there's an unusual gift) that someone can just jump into some scientific discipline without the benefit of formal education. Scientific ideas and technology are just too complicated today. I don't think that's true regarding the Arts (music, painting, etc). Unfortunately, for the rest of us, formal education, although it's not a guarantee, is our best bet.

Whichever way it's achieved, there's no doubt that thinking clearly is a most important weapon to defeat false information specially that which comes from cults. The WTBTS had a ring of truth for me, way back when, and I can see why they don't want their followers to obtain higher education. I don't think that they're afraid they'll be found out. I think that they just couldn't handle the questions and arguments from "educated" people that would reveal their "Swiss cheese" universe.

Etude.

17

hanging onto old thought processes

by rebel8 in

as a jw child, i learned to use the following "logic":decide what you want to believe before you research or learn about it.

(at the time, it was whatever the wts told me to believe.

)when you come across anything that supports your belief, accept it.when you come across anything that refutes your belief, reject it.repeat steps 2-4 indefinitely.. as far as i recall, i pretty much realized this faulty thought process before i left the jws and stopped doing it.

Etude

"I went to college several years later, which just expanded my already existing ability to use critical thinking."

Rebel8, you're onto something there. Bolh you and Zagor picked an excellent topic. You already concede that you had the ability to think critically. It's possible you would have come to the same conclusions had you not gone to college. What it boils down to is the individual. That's why the whole world is not in one cult or another (although, that's debatable). Personally, I have found many a "free thinker" and I have determined that I'm thinking critically now more than ever.

I recently wrote about my sister (No. 6) who is now (thread here and here) recently escaping "The Village". I always thought of her as intelligent, but realized that she as well as other individuals somehow manage to suppress their logical instincts and rationalize everything in order to retain their illusion. That's the power of emotion. However, it only goes so far. That's why she has finally awaken.

It has nothing to do with formal education, unless you count the process of "life-long learning". That's when someone does not stop reading and seeking out knowledge on their own without the benefit of formal education. Eventually, you're going to do something with it.

Zagor: I read your thread and there are many good points in it. I think you may be describing an actual mechanism, what you call cognitive vacuum, which explains how cults get in your head in the first place. I just can't help but think why one person falls for it and another doesn't. To me, it all comes down to the individual, regardless of their educational level. Perhaps some of us have not developed to the point of reasoning with sufficient conviction to say: "Hey, wait a minute there." I can see where the power of emotions can dominate what one may describe as "that little voice in your head" that tells you otherwise.

In that thread I started a about my sister, I may not have mentioned how she rationalized and actually was conscious enough to suppress her ideas because she thought that it was something she needed to do in order to become what she had envisioned. Because of that, I don't think everyone who falls for a cult simply "vacates" and accepts everything, line, hook and sinker. Many have to accommodate their thinking in order to make it fit their belief system and at the same time satisfy some deep seated desire. That makes clear to me the actions of the JW researcher you speak about. The evidence is there, but he chooses to interpret it another way, one that conforms with his belief system. It may be logical, but based on false premises, it will lead to the wrong conclusion.

That is no different than what happens in any other population. I have lots of friends with whom I correspond who have a totally skewed view when it comes to political subjects. They send out these E-mails blasting somebody or other and I just calmly and effectively show them research that shows they're full of shit. One such fact I discovered was of a poll taken six months after the infamous 9/11 event which showed that more than 70% of the American people believed that Iraq was responsible for the attacks on N.Y., PA, and the Pentagon. Not much critical thinking going on there. And guess who was responsible for that little idea?

The scientific community is no different. Recently, my sister sent me an article from the N.Y. Times that referred to a scientist's claim that OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) may be cause by a strep virus (based on a statistical study of children who had strep and have OCD). In the same article, another scientist says that if you study children who fell out of a tree and broke a bone, you will also find a population that has OCD. The conclusion would be that falling out of trees can cause OCD. I know that this one boils down to the interpretation that the scientist is leaning toward. But I also know that at times it comes down to intellectual integrity and how fair-minded (how much of a critical thinker) the scientist is. It's all relative but it's still an individual endeavor.

Etude.

22

Memories of your JW Youth

by Nosferatu in

after reading the responses to amazing1914's recent post, i decided this would be a great thread to start.

please share some of your memories!.

when my mother first became a jw, i was very sporatic with meeting attendance.

Etude

Nosferatu, your story is really sad. Where did you live? What was your environment like? The only thing to regret about that is that you were associated with the Witnesses at all. If you hadn't, you might have "broken out" and become what you needed to be a lot sooner in order to stop the abuse and to not put up with all that crap.

I was lucky. I was relatively popular and went to a lot of parties (we called them get-togethers) with the Witnesses. The problem was that I wouldn't have gotten laid if an orgasm ran me over. I was horny enough but I was too repressed by my parents (it had to do with my native culture) and would imagine that the world would come to an end if I embarrassed them. Looking back, I wish I had put my foot (or any other part of my body) in it and suffer the consequences. I could have saved myself years of a really f'd up time being a Witness.

My dad was not a Witness but he was supportive. He didn't push, though. Even so, he was very strict in my younger years. I wish he'd care enough, instead of just sitting on the fence, and pushed me to go to college instead of pioneering after graduating from High School.

It does sound to me like your dad was trying to be saved vicariously. He seems to be one of those do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do kinda guys. You should have called him on it. But, I realize that that might have gotten you another beating. I would have taken it. Anyway, it's all water under the bridge. Revel in your good memories and screw the bad ones. Think about the person you are now and what worth you have that is laudable. Hang tough.

Etude.

14

Pipe bomb at Bethel.

by Etude in

does anyone remember the incident that happened back in the summer of 1974 at what was called the "squibb" building at bethel where a pipe bomb detonated at one of the doors just under the bridge that spanned the complex across columbia heights?

i was at bethel at the time and i even have a picture of two nypd cops standing in front of the scene the day after (if i can only find the picture).

i was thinking of posting it on this forum but i don't know how.

Etude

Does anyone remember the incident that happened back in the summer of 1974 at what was called the "Squibb" building at Bethel where a pipe bomb detonated at one of the doors just under the bridge that spanned the complex across Columbia Heights? I was at Bethel at the time and I even have a picture of two NYPD cops standing in front of the scene the day after (if I can only find the picture). I was thinking of posting it on this forum but I don't know how. The incident was certainly not publicized in the Watchtower literature, but it made the usual underground circuit. I don't know what became of the incident or if they ever found out who did it. I wouldn't put it past anyone in the Organization at the time to blame it on apostates. Anyway, somebody was pissed off or some kids were putting on a dangerous prank. I remember serving as night watchman at the building across the street from the bomb site. It was not a good stint. If you don't remember this, or even if you do, do you know of any other similar incidents where an "attack" was made on the Society's property?

Etude.

34

Watchtower and UN?

by rambaldi in

is this issue of the watchtower being part of the un department of public information of any significance?

at the district conventions of jehovahs witnesses there are flags of the united states and other sovereign government such as states or other countries hanging from the buildings.

the governing body and the watchtower society rent buildings which become the equivalent of kingdom halls for the weekend.

Etude

I've noticed that Rimbaldi has not made any comebacks to all that's been said here, especially about the facts that have been stated. Rambaldi, if you're still trolling, please note that I'm reaching deep into my ex-JW mindset in order to respond in a way you would understand.

1. The difference between going to a stadium for a district or international assembly that has U.S. or other flags floating above or on a stage and joining the U.N. is that the stadium and/or its representatives are not an organization that the Watchtower has criticized for many years and identified as the most abominable institution according God. Something you would understand is the example that the Society liked to use a lot (at least in my time there) regarding Jehu (2 Kings chap. 10). Jehu went to the people of Sama'ria (whom he had been killing all along) and said that Ahab (the king whom Jehu had also slain) had served Ba'al well but that he would serve Ba'al even more (a lying trick). So he asked that all the prophets, priests and worshipers of Ba'al come to the temple for a big old party. After they assembled he went in with Jehon'adab and asked him to make sure there were no worshipers of Jehovah in the temple. Then Jehu actually went in and made sacrifices to Ba'al (even if he wasn't sincere, that brings up a lot of questions) and afterwards went out and told the 80 men he had stationed outside to slaughter everyone at the peril of their own lives if they let anyone escape.

The moral of the story, as the Society likes to use it, is that we should not identify ourselves with any pagan or political organization in any way for fear that we might be confused and be "slaughtered" when the day of reckoning comes. I was so influenced by the constant emphasis of such an example that I refused to perform alternative service in the military for fear that just by being in a military hospital, I would somehow be associated with the government and put my spirituality in peril. That was no misinterpretation on my part. The Watchtower wanted you to act accordingly.

2. Speaking of association, are you not aware of what happened in Malawi in the 70s? The government required all citizens to have a card that said you belonged to a political party. If just having a piece of paper that says something with which you may or may not agree is the law or the rule, I compare that to your example of being in a building where a goverment flag is required to be displayed. After all, it's just a piece of paper (cloth), right? But nooooo! The Society insisted that "true Christians" could not bear that card (even if they didn't "honor" it) because it sent a message that they somehow supported the government. Consequently, a lot of innocent people died and many women were savegely raped.

3. You may also not be aware of a lawsuit that was brought by a Witness in the state of New Hampshire and decided on by David Souter (now in the US Supreme Court). Souter ruled against the Witness' objection to have a New Hampshire license plate that had a patriotic slogan. The Witness felt he could not possibly ride around with such a slogan because his allegiance was to God. Apparently, Souter's decision was reversed on appeal and I don't know what happened to the case. Regardless of the outcome, that example is exactly parallel to the one you state regarding a flag in a public gathering place for a Witness assembly. Don't you see the connection regarding loyalty and association with political and religious institutions that has been clearly inculcated by the Watchtower Society into its members? Do you think the Watchtower Society should do any less regarding the U.N?

The next principle to consider is: How does the actions of an individual working at the Watchtower Society affect the organization? It doesn’t. The organization is lead by Jesus Christ through the Governing Body. I don’t recall the governing body having a vote on the matter and then publishing the matter to the organization. So…

4.Now please, don't try to obfuscate the issue by making a distinction between the Governing Body (the Organization) and the Watchtower Society. Have you never wondered who controls whom? Yes, the Watchtower Society is a legal tangible entity. But you know that it represents the interests of the Jehovah's Witnesses whose Governing Body calls the shots. Do you think anyone in control was unaware of the decision to become an NGO? If the implications were not so significant, why pull out when it was discovered and publicized? Why not continue as a member and simply say: "We're just trying to get information." Do you really believe that there's information the Watchtower Society needs from the U.N. that can't be obtained from other sources and requires a membership as an NGO? If you do, I have several impressive bridges, strategically located in major urban areas with huge potential for profits that are available for your investment.

Etude.