Posts by Etude

132

"Believers" vs. Atheists- Why this formulation?

by Band on the Run in

i believe christ is god.

when i left the witnesses i believed i had to be agnostic.

through a scheduling conflict, i studied the new testament in college.

Etude

" Christ can co-exist with science and rigorous academic study. "

Sure, sure they can co-exist. But, they will probably never agree. Red and Blue States (ideologies) co-exist. But I doubt they will ever have an accord on most issues. Band on the Run, although I feel protective of your feelings and desire for a sense of spirituality, you must be realistic about what it is you believe and what the truth may be. I read "Jesus Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them)” by Bart D. Ehrman, where after showing huge problems with the canon via Historical Criticism, he nevertheless concludes that what's important is to take away is the message of Christ, the one that says to love one another, etc, etc, even if Christ many have never existed.

So, I suppose that there's a way to have a positive attitude even while being completely aware that our foundations are totally fabricated. Hey, whatever works for you is OK. Just keep it real. For me, there is a inevitable recognition that most humans have a spiritual side, even if there is no God to satisfy it. I don't try to explain it, but I try to nurture it by keeping that sense of awe about the universe and about really cool people. But, it has nothing to do with religion or beliefs which I can't substantiate. Am I an atheist? I'm not sure. I'm definitely profoundly agnostic. Even so, I've been accused of being one or the other for simply making some observations about one or the other. It's funny how perhaps we can be in the same position and believe so differently.

41

Who/what decides what is right and what is wrong?

by Knowsnothing in

is it the united states of america?

is it democracy?

is it communism?

Etude

OK:

Rule No. 1: All of the above determine what is right and what is wrong.

Rule No. 2: When any of "all of the above" clash and contratict, the majority or the ones that can kick more ass and impose morality on others wins.

Rule No. 3: "So basically, you're saying morality is based on the culture at the time, correct?" and "Morals vary depending on era and region and history.": YES! It's called the "moral zeitgeist" and has been around since dirt. That's what made it OK for a Levite to cut up his wife in 12 pieces and parade them around Israel or for Lot to offer his daughters for rape in Sodom, or for women to be called "sluts" if they showed their ankles in public at the turn of the 20th Century but to be chick and wear dresses above the knee as "flappers" in the 1920s.

Rule No. 4: God (at least the one from the Bible) has been very inconsistent when it comes to morality. Therefore, ignore God on morality.

8

Question: What would happen if...

by OneDayillBeFree in

...all of the governing body members suddenly died?!.

i had been feeling a little sick so i took some nyquil which gave me the craziest dream last night where i saw a jdub plan out and kill each one of the gb!

each made to look like an accident or like an illness.

Etude

Yep, I've had those bizarre dreams while under the hand of Morpheous' nephew: NyQuil. Very trippy. But seriously, if they, for example, died in a plane crash, there's no shortage of individuals ready to jump in take over. Remember that there's a lot of status mongering at Bethel. Either that, or they will go back to the days of Rutherford and Knorr when one person called the shots.

23

Incest

by LoisLane looking for Superman in

as a born in, one of my earliest thoughts has always been jehovah has an angel that writes down everything in a big book, all the good things that happen to me/others and everything bad that happens to me/others.

i faithfully and honestly believed that.. in march of this year i read c of c. by 5 am the next morning i was out.

24 hours before, a true, steadfast believer.

Etude

Lois: You are very brave telling your story. I think that act will reward you, knowing you've become so free that that you are able to speak about it. Your story is devastating. But it lays out a sad, sad course too often trekked by so many people. It goes to show what kind of organization this JW cult really is. It's not that they do this things. Some people just have a great capability for evil. But ultimately, the JW cult encourages and even sets people up for it with their dogma. They breed institutionalized dysfunction and people suffer. I think that CoC was the button that blew the door open to what you already knew (whether you realized it or not) was that dysfunction. Hey, I hope you find your Superman. I think you're on your way.

25

Hello

by Benjie in

jw
friends

this is my first time now that i'm registered.

i've been reading here for a while though.. it's been a long journey to get here, but now i have turned my back on everything i've known for such a long time, but a new road lies ahead, and this is one of the first steps on it.. .

Etude

Welcome Benjie: Give us some details. I take it you were both baptized, no? If you were, you might expect some "shepherding" calls so they can try to reel you back in. There may be some discussions. If you didn't have too many ties on the inside, it will be quite easy for you to say "thanks but, no thanks". You can assume that they'll make an announcement of some sort letting the congregation know that you have disassociated yourselves. That means, they'll shun you on the streets. If you've been retreating for a while, it won't bother you much. If it causes you problems, we're here to help.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

Etude

" We believe that the diversity and interrelation of all life on earth are best explained by the God-ordained process of evolution with common descent. Thus, evolution is not in opposition to God, but a means by which God providentially achieves his purposes. "

OK. If God ordanined the process of evolution, then that's not the God of the Bible or of the Qur'an or of any other ancient holy book. The reason is: they (those holy books) point to a different God that created the heavens and the Earth and an original man. The method of creation is quite specific in those books and it ain't evolution.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

Etude

"i dont believe there much that can get an atheist to believe if they dont want to"

Didn't the words in my post (304) give you a clue about how much I wanted to believe, how much I yearned for what was promised? Why wouldn't anyone want paradise and peace? I didn't start out not wanting to believe and it's not that I don't want to believe now. But, no. The basic reality of life is something entirely different. Even wanting to believe won't make the facts go away. I may end up being wrong. But that doesn't mean that you're alternative will automatically be righy.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

Etude

" i really just want to get an idea if athiest worry about the afterlife i do not wish to force my beliefs on anyone. "

Why would an atheist worry about an afterlife? That's like worrying about an after-smoking-a-joint or worrying about after-going-to-sleep or worrying after a great orgasm. Being an atheist is liberating that way. You don't really give a shit about what happens because you agree with Salomon that being a live dog is better than being a dead lion. Life's uncertain. Eat your dessert first.

If God were to ask me why I stopped believing in him, I would answer: Because I was wrong:

You see God, I had no reason to believe in you in the first place. I did because I was taught to by everyone else ever since I was a child. I thought about you a lot in those years, but I never really heard from you.

There were times when I really needed you and I guess you were too busy. How could I possibly know that you were there? Then, I learned a whole lot of new stuff. And every ounce of intellect that you gave me showed me that the more I looked for you the less and less there was to find. Sorry God, but it seems you hid from me.

At a time when I really believed in you and dedicated my life to you, you allowed my world to crumble as it was battered by the greatest deception I had ever experienced. I lost my friends, my family and my way of life as I knew it. You gave me the cruelest gift of all: The loss of the very best hope and innocence and goodness I had come to expect. You made me that way.

Even so, there was always something in my feelings that wanted to talk to someone greater than anyone around. Once, I went to a very old forest in Main. I sat in the penetrating silence and had the sensation you were there. Later, I watched from a beach in California and soaked in a spectacular sunset and thought you were there with me or among the fiery clouds. Another time, I looked at a bead of water on a bright flower on one of the greyest days I'd ever seen and thought I saw your reflection. But it wasn't you. It was just something I was feeling.

Yes, I'm made wonderfully. But you never really showed me how wonderful I can be. You left me to my own to figure it all out. You left the entire world on its own to figure it out. Then I realized that you were never there to begin with.

Man this rum in my snifter is pretty damned good! Thanks mother nature.

14

How Did The Watchtower Reason Away Their United Nation Membership Card? Poor Malawi Brothers!

by ÁrbolesdeArabia in

the brothers in malawi died, sisters were rapped for not buying a government card which the watchtower organization did for itself with the united nations (ngo status, card carryning members of the wild beast!).

why did the governing body decide it was ok to carry a united nations identification card for the watchtower society as a whole?

this makes no sense, shows how little the governing body and the "dark corporation behind the organization" does not care for jesus christ's little sheep.

Etude

I may have to go back and re-read the account in CoC. But, my take on the "Mexico" thing wasn't about the "brothers" getting government assistance. It was about certifying that they had "served" in the Military, as required by the Mexican constitution. The "card" was acquired "purchased" via a bride (mordida) from your local neighborhood army center. Why was the card so critical? My understanding is that without it, it's difficult to find certain types of work or even get a passport to travel. What the Society did covering their two-faced decision was deeply, deeply criminal.

112

Are They Cynically Shutting Down The Organization?

by metatron in

jw
friends

i've raised this idea before but recent events seem to support it.

changes in the watchtower may be guided by more than a need for cash flow: they may simply be liquidating/shutting it down as discreetly as possible.. of course, this doesn't mean they stop working on their upstate ny country club - but it could mean that the throrough going exposure and disproof of their beliefs on the internet, when it emerged, took many of them by surprize, as it did many of us!

after awhile, they generally gave up trying to make any sense of their doctrines - and coupled with cash flow issues - moved towards a quiet retreat.. take a look at a few things:.

Etude

Isn't it ironic that we can suspect so much about the organization and the IRS be so clueless? They have forensic accountants that can dig up long trails laundering and financial murk. I guess we have to come up with another conspiracy where whoever controls the WTS has an inside person in the IRS to cover up their trail. C'mon!