Posts by OldSoul

300

A comment I heard tonight

by Generic Man in

tonight i heard one of the most cruel and twisted comments i've ever heard at the platform.

the topic was the apocalypse and whether or not children will be slaughtered.

through one side of his mouth, the po stated that the bible is not clear on the matter, while out the other side he pointed to all those old testament accounts where children were killed.

OldSoul

Schizm: You're quite mistaken! What Eglon himself believed was the very thing that made Ehud's mission successful. Were it not for Eglon's gullibility then Ehud would've failed. Ehud's intent was to have Eglon believe that there was an actual message from God for him. Eglon fell for it, the dumb bastard, and died as a result.

Hmm. Your Bible reads differently from mine.

Judges 3:18-24
18 And it came about that when he had finished presenting the tribute, he at once sent the people away, the bearers of the tribute. 19 And he himself turned back at the quarries that were at Gil´gal, and he proceeded to say: "I have a secret word for you, O king." So he said: "Keep silence!" With that all those who were standing by him went on out from him. 20 And E´hud came to him as he was sitting in his cool roof chamber that he had to himself. And E´hud went on to say: ?A word of God I have for you.? At that he rose up from his throne. 21 Then E´hud thrust in his left hand and took the sword off his right thigh and plunged it into his belly. 22 And the handle kept going in also after the blade so that the fat closed in over the blade, for he did not draw the sword out of his belly, and the fecal matter began to come out. 23 And E´hud proceeded to go out through the air hole, but he closed the doors of the roof chamber behind him and locked them. 24 And he himself went out.

Now, as I read I find that it was this secret matter that Ehud said he had for the king, then the King sent the men out. That happened before Ehud mentioned God. Prior to jumping down my throat for changing "word" to "matter" you might want to examine the original Hebrew word:

H1697 דּבר dâbâr daw-bawr'

From H1696; a word; by implication a matter (as spoken of) of thing; adverbially a cause: - act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), + because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune (-ication), + concern [-ing], + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree, deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, [evil favoured-] ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, [no] thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some [uncleanness], somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what [-soever], + wherewith, which, word, work.

Sorry, sport. No active deceit. The word can mean "errand" or "task", the same word is used in both places. Omitting information on the nature of the errand is not active deceit. You lose. But thank you for admitting the active campaign of deceiving the rank and file Jehovah's Witness. It is also helpful to know that it does not surprise you. I am sure it would surprise anyone just starting to investigate this organization that a long-timer like you is not surprised by active attempts to deceive the rank and file.

OldSoul

300

A comment I heard tonight

by Generic Man in

tonight i heard one of the most cruel and twisted comments i've ever heard at the platform.

the topic was the apocalypse and whether or not children will be slaughtered.

through one side of his mouth, the po stated that the bible is not clear on the matter, while out the other side he pointed to all those old testament accounts where children were killed.

OldSoul

Schizm: Yes, I'll "grant" that the WTS is deliberately hiding the truth from the rank and file. I've already explained why it's necessary for the WTS to do that.

Your explanation has everything except precedent and proof. It is a lying accusation of active deceit on the part of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I think it is odd that you defend them vigorously against honest and provable accusations of deception in other cases, but in this case you defend their "right" to deceive those who rely on them for truth.

Why don't you write a complimentary letter commending what you assume to have happened and see what response you get? Call it a "show of faith".

Please post the reply for us to see.

300

A comment I heard tonight

by Generic Man in

tonight i heard one of the most cruel and twisted comments i've ever heard at the platform.

the topic was the apocalypse and whether or not children will be slaughtered.

through one side of his mouth, the po stated that the bible is not clear on the matter, while out the other side he pointed to all those old testament accounts where children were killed.

OldSoul

Schizm: Will OldSoul be back to defend what he's said? I rather doubt it!

Poor Schizm! You're just having awful luck with your suspicions turning out to be unfounded, aren't you? As it happens, while you posted your last two replies, I was crafting the above. You'll note, I more directly addressed your claim of deception on the part of Ehud.

I don't know how much support for your view you will garner since the Bible account makes perfectly clear that Ehud omitted information, which the WTS says is not even a lie, and allowed Eglon to assume what the content of the message was, whereas you portray the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as propagandizing misrepresenters of truth.

Main Entry: 4 lie
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English lige, lie, from Old English lyge; akin to Old High German lugI, Old English lEogan to lie
1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker 2 : something that misleads or deceives 3 : a charge of lying

Enjoy!

300

A comment I heard tonight

by Generic Man in

tonight i heard one of the most cruel and twisted comments i've ever heard at the platform.

the topic was the apocalypse and whether or not children will be slaughtered.

through one side of his mouth, the po stated that the bible is not clear on the matter, while out the other side he pointed to all those old testament accounts where children were killed.

OldSoul

Schizm: There indeed was deceit, even according to your perception of the matter. Do you actually think that Eglon believed that Ehud had THAT SORT of message from God? Certainly, if Eglon hadn't been fooled he would never have dismissed his guards in the first place.

Well, when it comes to not addressing issues raised, I bow to your infinite experience. You must be correct. What Eglon believed about the nature of the message is immaterial. There was no lie involved in this account.

Ehud did not say what sort of message it was. Eglon assumed, however, that the secret was one he would not want his guards to hear. Eglon was a much despised King and any secret word from a foreign man who had already been checked for weapons would have piqued his interest.

I grant that this was a deception, albeit only one of omission of information while speaking to a tyrannical despot who had demanded yearly tribute for 18 years. If your fantastical reason for affiliating is correct, will you grant that the communication to date from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society regarding its NGO Affiliation is an ongoing commission of deception by actively delivering false information to people who have been financially supporting the organization for decades? That is, if your fantasy is correct. At least my reasoning paints them as bumbling inepts. You paint them as intentional deceivers for the Lord.

I thought it was understood that I sought a precedential example of active commission of deception, not passive ommission of information that allowed an enemy of God to assume an untruth. By the by, is Ehud your best example? Pitiable.

OldSoul

33

In My Opinion...

by OldSoul in

in my opinion (for the sake of sixofnine and his propensity toward apoplexy):.

it seems to me that while there are many issues that we could address regarding the watchtower bible and tract society/governing body/congregation of jehovah's witnesses, there is one that stands out as uniquely given to ease of communication.

i would like to take this opportunity to state which issue and why, then invite open commentary.. the issue of the watchtower bible and tract society attaching itself to the un/dpi.. while i readily agree that this is minor in importance compared to matters like child molestation and failed prophecy, i see this as the easiest to bring up, the easiest to substantiate, and the easiest to demonstrate long-term gross error in.

OldSoul

In My Opinion (for the sake of sixofnine and his propensity toward apoplexy):

it seems to me that while there are many issues that we could address regarding the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society/Governing Body/Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, there is one that stands out as uniquely given to ease of communication. I would like to take this opportunity to state which issue and why, then invite open commentary.

The issue of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society attaching itself to the UN/DPI.

While I readily agree that this is minor in importance compared to matters like child molestation and failed prophecy, I see this as the easiest to bring up, the easiest to substantiate, and the easiest to demonstrate long-term gross error in. I think many here are getting trapped in a Web (pun intended) set for the purpose by feeding into ridiculing the stated reason for affiliation.

In reality, it doesn't matter whether it was ostensibly for access to the library, a venue for speaking engagements, better access to world leaders, or any of the dozens of other reasons there may have been. What they were thinking is immaterial, the FACTS are clear and freely available. They blatantly contravened their own standards and, fortunately, they did so in a very public way. (see OD p. 155, par. 2 and OM p. 151, par. 1)

Since the nature of this relationship is patently true and specifically criticized in their own publications, there is no way anyone could be rightly accused of speaking untruth or misleading anyone. Also, it is a secular relationship that is a matter of public record. To try and stifle such speech through religious discipline would amount to silencing a whistle-blower, not of criminal activity but of spiritual malfeasance.

Additionally, the conduct absolutely betrayed a legal trust with monetary supporters. The Resolution adopted in 1963 was NOT simply a declaration. It was a binding legal instrument that was adopted by vote.

Respectfully,
OldSoul

300

A comment I heard tonight

by Generic Man in

tonight i heard one of the most cruel and twisted comments i've ever heard at the platform.

the topic was the apocalypse and whether or not children will be slaughtered.

through one side of his mouth, the po stated that the bible is not clear on the matter, while out the other side he pointed to all those old testament accounts where children were killed.

OldSoul

EvilForce: if continued debate is likely to produce any answers, biblical support, or honest exchange.

Your point is well taken and noted. I did a similar thing with Schizm the first time I got sucked in. Then I posted a long exchange with "A Friend In Need" and realized that there is some value in debating people like Schizm whether there is any immediate result for Schizm or not.

Schizm's reasoning is very abductive, oddly perverted in a manner familiar to any who have spoken at length with Jehovah's Witnesses. Circular logic and demeaning questions are the order of the day, necessary elements to avoid looking realistically at their own beliefs and measuring them honestly against the Bible. While I have hope that Schizm will learn to think for him or herself, it is not that hope which causes me to continue despite a foregone outcome.

Schizm will give me endless opportunities to show others, by example, how to calmly defend their minds against perverse and controlling reasoning with good humor.

Respectfully,
OldSoul

300

A comment I heard tonight

by Generic Man in

tonight i heard one of the most cruel and twisted comments i've ever heard at the platform.

the topic was the apocalypse and whether or not children will be slaughtered.

through one side of his mouth, the po stated that the bible is not clear on the matter, while out the other side he pointed to all those old testament accounts where children were killed.

OldSoul

You're also a hypocrite.

Wow, Master Member of an apostate Web site with over 800 posts, many with liberal usage of LMAO! They say it takes one to know one. I believe you are imposing your own sad state onto those around you. It is a psychological trick used as a survival mechanism by many cultists. Don't worry, it has a name. You can be helped. It is called "transference."

Actually, I can't explain my being "in good standing." I don't attend meetings. I don't report field activity. I don't contribute any moneys. Perhaps it is because of hopeful nepotism that I still retain my "good standing" status. However, I am in good standing despite my absence. Since I am currently in the process of communicating with the "Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses" (the newest legal cover name for the mouthpiece of the Faithful and Discreet Slave) on the subject of NGO Affiliation with the assistance of the local BOE, perhaps you had best reserve comment about my spirituality lest God judge you harshly as one for whom it would be better to have had a millstone about your neck and a big gulp of salt water.

I am just a publisher. I have no position of authority beyond "husband" in any congregation. I am a "little one," so I caution you to take greatest care how you treat me. So far, your lumbering oafishness and coarse manner has reaffirmed courses of action I had not yet decided with certainty.

OldSoul

300

A comment I heard tonight

by Generic Man in

tonight i heard one of the most cruel and twisted comments i've ever heard at the platform.

the topic was the apocalypse and whether or not children will be slaughtered.

through one side of his mouth, the po stated that the bible is not clear on the matter, while out the other side he pointed to all those old testament accounts where children were killed.

OldSoul

Schizm: On the other hand, look who it is that hasn't caught onto what the WTS has done by becoming an NGO with the UN. You're absolutely hilarious, OldSoul. Talking about cheap intertainment!

While I know for certain why they associated themselves to the UN, I also suspect I know your thoughts on the matter. You are a conspiracy theorist and full of Shiite. You have only conjecture to substantiate your view, but I will humor you by bringing your fantasy into the open:

Schizm finds out about the WTS associating to the NGO. A reasonable person would investigate the allegation, but Schizm isn't reasonable. He is mildly troubled at first though. Then, at the unlikeliest of times, it hits him like a bolt out of the blue (probably guided by Holy Spirit).

"What better way to see who is truly loyal no matter what?" postulates Schizm, as he leans forward to wipe a remnant of feces from his anus. A glint in his eye, he begins to mentally weave a tall tale of Theocratically Acceptable Deception (TAD for short) designed to catch the unstable in a trap! Over time, this becomes his only way to justify the behaviors he sees. He is presented with a paradox of actions that plainly do not match stated belief, and he invents an imaginary solution that allows him to continue associating with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Of course, he only has a TAD for proof, and a TAD of logic to support this tall tale. But for him, a TAD is plenty. "Speak truth, each one with his neighbor." "If anyone stumbles one of these little ones..." "...they bind up heavy loads but are unwiling to budge them with their finger." "...avoid even the appearance of evil." "...not to be stumbling anyone..."

Such plain spoken principles must simply be a TAD too inconvenient for Schizm to think about, because that would mean the unthinkable -- reality is real. Br-r-r-r!

Schizm, I have a very good imagination. I prefer to avoid relying too much on it, though. For some reason, I have the strange idea I am supposed to be using "intellect" and "logic" instead. For some reason, I have this notion that I should be testing what I am told for error. Oh, wait! That's simply because I don't twist what the Bible says!

Romans 12:1, 2 is plain. "Power of reason?" Logikos. Logic.

1 John 4:1 is plain. "Test?" The root word means put to the test. Try. Prove. The same word is used in Romans 12:2 for "prove."

Hebrews 5:14 is plain. "Distinguish?" The root word is diakrinos. It basically means to judge between, to decide between, to discern the character or nature of, to choose with understanding. Diakrinos is a dangerous concept for Jehovah's Witnesses. You should stop it, if you want to remain one of Jehovah's Witnesses. A Watchtower said that diakrinos leads to presumptive doubts about the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Bible says diakrinos leads to spiritual maturity. I already know which source you trust more.

OldSoul

300

A comment I heard tonight

by Generic Man in

tonight i heard one of the most cruel and twisted comments i've ever heard at the platform.

the topic was the apocalypse and whether or not children will be slaughtered.

through one side of his mouth, the po stated that the bible is not clear on the matter, while out the other side he pointed to all those old testament accounts where children were killed.

OldSoul

Schizm: There's no question whatsoever of you being the WTS's enemy.

Such confidence in your own ability to judge the house servant of another! Wow! I am deeply impressed! Not in a good way, but deeply impressed just the same. You don't even know me and I stand under judgement by you!

It is a trivial thing to be judged by you or a human tribunal. I am not conscious of anything against myself. But by that I am not proved righteous... he that examines me is God. When you get done playing God get out of his chair, he'll need that back while measuring you according to your own exacting standards. I hope you have been very careful.

An enemy is one who attacks. I cannot be called an enemy for speaking truth or promoting belief in truth. In fact, even according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society an apostate is one who spreads lies or misrepresentations about Jehovah's Witnesses. I do neither.

I am a publisher in good standing in my local congregation. Are you my judicial committee? I haven't been able yet to present my side and you have already declared me guilty? How hypocritical and Pharisaical can you get! It reminds me of Jesus' illegal trial! You have quite a large scripture containing case there, Schism, and your fringe is dragging the floor.

You still have presented no example of the kind of Theocratic Warfare you suggested. Certainly nothing that would explain away a ten year association to the image of the wild beast, an organization that is repugnant to Jehovah! The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society disassociated themselves from the UN/DPI after ten years, more than 1 / 12 of their modern existence.

I am certain that the reason was exactly as they stated it: for library privileges. I have no doubt at all that their decision did not extend beyond that reason. I further have no doubt that their reason is absolutey irrelevant to discussion of the actual legal relationship established and its implications. If an atheist associates himself or herself to the YMCA simply for use of the swimming pool it still implies support for the YMCA. That principle is solidly established precedent.

OldSoul

300

A comment I heard tonight

by Generic Man in

tonight i heard one of the most cruel and twisted comments i've ever heard at the platform.

the topic was the apocalypse and whether or not children will be slaughtered.

through one side of his mouth, the po stated that the bible is not clear on the matter, while out the other side he pointed to all those old testament accounts where children were killed.

OldSoul

Schizm: Of course you're going to say that the "message from God" was that he decreed that Eglon should die at Ehud's hand.

There was no deceit. The art of metaphor is apparently lost on you. That was exactly what God's message was.

Read Judges 3:15, "But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised them up a deliverer, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab."

Are you saying the Bible is lying? Misrepresenting reality? Obfuscating truth? If Ehud was raised up as a deliverer from the hand of the Moabite King, then Eglon's death was a message from God. Are you really so lacking in sensibility that you cannot discern that?

Either way, there was no deceit on Ehud's part. He was checked for weapons. He was a known to be from an aggressor nation. He did not pretend otherwise. He clearly stated he had a secret errand, which was true. He said he had a message from God, which, according to Judges 3:15, was also true.

Spin the wheel again, me boy-o. Spin 'er again. Yer gettin' dizzier by the turn.

OldSoul