a dear old active jw friend called last night to tell me that another dear jw friend died late wednesday night.
i really feel bad about it because i have known my deceased friend and her family for almost 30 years.
her brother and i were best friends and business associates until i da'd last year.
So sorry for your loss, (((Honesty))).
But I am always glad to hear that there are individuals among Jehovah's Witnesses who understand what friendship is all about. It is such a shame that Christian love is not evident in the actions and attitudes of the majority of Witnesses.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
well friends things had bad going very well for my wife recently.
she had been looking a the wts critically for quite some time now.
we would have daily discussions on how so many things didnt make sense.
I doubt she will be ignored because she will be new at that hall they wont know her history
You might consider going with her, and enjoying the commenting section of the Watchtower Study. Sit near the front...
Respectfully,
OldSoul
well friends things had bad going very well for my wife recently.
she had been looking a the wts critically for quite some time now.
we would have daily discussions on how so many things didnt make sense.
gringojj,
Why not ask her mother some pointed questions in front of your wife about whether it is okay to teach things that are not based on the Bible. Ask whether pyramidology is a proper basis for confidence in the Bible's prophecies.
You might ask your wife why Witnesses didn't come the same moment she was praying, or at least the same day. And ask her why when they did come were they unable to speak truth using only the Bible. Ask your wife whether she really believes they would have avoided your door if she had prayed, "Please don't send any Jehovah's Witnesses to our door if they have the truth."
Our loved ones are being stripped from us by an organization that sucks up all their time. You have my heart with you.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
i am waiting for any jehovah's witness to offer support in scripture of these four articles of faith: .
(1) the faithful and discreet slave is a class of people, .
(2) that the holy spirit directs organizations in addition to individuals, .
Shadow,
So the 1st century pattern of elders is to be abandoned? Was there a need in the 1st century for elders & servants?
I don't think the first century pattern of elders was a pattern of authority. On what do you base a view that it was? Greater accountability? Clearly evident. That they were servant in the congregation, no question. That they had authority over the flock? I can't find one Scripture to support it.
Were true teachings mixed with false ones in the 1st century? Should everyone wanting to serve God have left those congregations?
Everyone who wants to serve God has a responsibility to exercise their reasoning ability (Scriptural) and perceptive powers (Scriptural) and learn to distinguish right from wrong (Scriptural). This organization claims that there is no need for people to do that and eventually disfellowships those who do as apostates.
The question is, did the early Christian congregations expel everyone who taught false teachings? If not, why should I compare this organization to the early Christian congregations?
What groups manifest that determination to remain neutral?
Does political neutrality excuse shunning over disagreements or questions, thereby killing reputations, destroying families, and undoing lifelong friendships? How can that be the only important criterion, when the Bible doesn't even directly hold it out as one criterion? By extension, neutrality is a manifestation of love among yourselves. What is shunning on unscriptural grounds a direct example of a lack of, if not love?
What method would you use to identify God's people?
Fair question. I would identify you as one and I would use the marks outlined in the Scriptures. To my knowledge, you have not prophesied falsely. You do not accuse those wrongly who do not deserve it. You do not seem to hold the traditions of men above God's law. You seem to exemplify what Christian love would motivate. You appear to have a fervent love of God and His righteous standards.
But do you feel most Witnesses are like you? Do you feel this is a good description of the Organization? Do you believe you represent the majority, or the teensy minority of Witnesses? If you are in the minority, is the organization displaying the marks of true Christianity?
To demonstrate the point: If you clearly communicated the body of posts you have made on this forum to the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses and disclosed the environment you made these posts in, would you be disfellowhipped if you failed to repent from your iniquitous ways? What would be the impact to your family? To your friendships?
In other words, do you have great freeness of speech that belongs to Christians? Yes. Do you use it? No, not if you are still a Witness. Why? (John 9:22)
Did Jehovah author the arrangement of bishops and deacons in the 1st century?
No. Nor did he author a Faithful and Discreet Slave "Class" or Governing Body to distribute "new light" with magisterial authority, or an eldership that came with authority over the flock ("Not that we are masters over your faith..."; "neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock."). I am not trying to make a case for the Catholic Church, I am demonstrating that such a case could be made just as easily.
How did Jesus view worshipping God within that arrangement? Did he only observe what was specifically stated in scripture in matters of worship?
He did to the extent that the Law allowed. I guess that answers both parts. However, he also had Scriptural evidence for the authority of the Law. I do not think that because he honored some customs that he was advocating the illegitimate authority that was the source of those customs, do you? He failed to honor so many customs and traditions, even simple ones that could be easily performed without violation of God's Law (e.g. washing hands up to the elbows, etc.), that the argument really wouldn't hold up to scrutiny.
While Jesus was on the earth, did Israel constitute God's chosen people?
No, not anymore. Their house was abandoned to them. Jesus was inviting out as many as would follow him and learn from him. The Jews were, by agreement, expelling (shamatta) any from the synagogue who confessed him as the Christ (on the grounds of Apostasy). So, no, they did not constitute God's people at that time. God favored them with the first opportunity to respond to the Good News because of his friendship with Abraham, not because they were his chosen people at the time of Jesus' arrival.
I ask again, if there are plain teachings of the Scriptures that show Jesus viewed the religious leaders of the Jews as God's organization that he exclusively recognized or that there is such an organization today, please share them.
If not, please explain, Scripturally, how I should view an organization that makes this lying claim and then punishes people, or even threatens to punish (John 9:22), with excommunication for publicly disputing this claim. I can Scripturally show that Jesus made his choice clear. (John 9:34, 35)
I keep asking for Scriptural proof, you bring up proof of authority being okay. I already know authority is okay. I don't need proof of that. I need proof that I should specifically regard the authority exercised by the Faithful and Discreet Slave (who really don't exercise any authority) and the Governing Body as approved by God.
Was it unmistakable that Israel was God's people?
Before Jesus began his ministry? Yes.
Was 1st century Christianity unmistakably supported by God? Why then did the disciples have to make a case for it?
Christianity? Yes. Authority over other humans? No. (1 Corinthians 4:1-5) I don't think the disciples had to make a case for Christianity being supported by God. I believe Christianity is supported by God, but I don't feel I have to make a case for it. I fear there may be some mixing of ideas here, an unstated implication that Christianity demands a human authority structure. I don't agree that a human authority structure is needed where the Spirit operates.
Upshot is, I see a need to defend a current claim of "authority from God over other people" with Scripture. If you do not see that need then I won't try to dissuade your confidence. However, if there is Scripture to support the Governing Body's claim for authority over other people, I would like to know.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
irrational naturalism (#201) .
by henry morris, ph.d. .
abstract .
Caedes,
I was just kidding, not insisting at all! I enjoyed your post, though. It seems that from different sides of the fence our perspectives about reality and delusion are as similar as could be reasonably expected.
I thought you were kidding, I was kidding back. I got this hilarious mental image of you and FunkyDerek squared of in a skeptics deathmatch, no holds barred.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
when an apostate(a) and jw having a conversation.. a : in genesis 1:26 with who was god speaking to ?
gen 1:26 and god went on to say: let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.
jw : on that verse?
Which means you are a schism among Jehovah's Witnesses. Basically, if you were to publicize that those refinements that "need to be made" (whether on the basis of Daniel 11:35 or not) you would be disfellowshipped as an apostate, if you aren't already.
Additionally, Daniel 11:35 doesn't say anything about the refining work and stumbling being "just prior" to, there is nothing in the text to indicate that it would not start when the apostasy starts and end at the time of the end. It only says some will be made to stumble "until," it doesn't say "just prior."
Respectfully,
OldSoul
i had a two hour conversation with a friend last night.
frustrating.
it was like arguing with myself.
I would recommend you go with what matters to him.
Matthew 24:23-28 — “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
That may not be clear enough, but the references from this text, pulled straight from the CD-ROM, should provide enough source material:
Extracted Marginals and Citations — Rbi8 Matthew 24:23-24:28Respectfully,
Matthew 24:5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
Luke 17:23 And people will say to YOU, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after [them].
1 John 4:1 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
1 John 2:18 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour.
Deuteronomy 13:1 “In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent,
Matthew 7:15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones.
2 Peter 2:1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’
2 Thessalonians 2:9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents
Revelation 13:13 And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones.
John 13:19 From this moment on I am telling YOU before it occurs, in order that when it does occur YOU may believe that I am [he].
Luke 17:23 And people will say to YOU, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after [them].
Job 37:3 Under the whole heavens he lets it loose, And his lightning is to the extremities of the earth.
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One.
Luke 17:24 For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death];
Luke 17:37 So in response they said to him: “Where, Lord?” He said to them: “Where the body is, there also the eagles will be gathered together.”
Job 39:30 And its young ones themselves keep sipping up blood; And where the slain are, there it is.”
.
since you are one of the easiest active jw's to ask, do you know how that year 1914 for the return of jesus was arrived at?
i'm not asking to put you on the spot, but i am curious if you would be able to explain it to me if i asked.. i notice you never post on any threads that have to do with that subject.
I am a Witness, I can answer for you.
do you know how that year 1914 for the return of Jesus was arrived at?
Assumption #1: Daniel 4:10-17 has two fulfillments, The first would be fulfilled on Nebuchadnezzar and the latter would be fulfilled on Jehovah's Sovereignty over the earth (whose sovereignty is supposedly represented by a Babylonian King).
There is, however, nothing in the text of Daniel 4 to indicate a secondary fulfillment. In fact, every element of the prophecy was also fulfilled in that same chapter. So the question arises: Why apply it as a second fulfillment?
Jesus said, "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." so obviously that means that Daniel's prophecy about "seven times" (which incidentally was not a prophecy of Daniel's, but rather a dream of Nebuchadnezzar's) applied to Jerusalem being trampled at some later date.
Seven times equals seven years, because the Governing Body says so and a couple of other prophecies were fulfilled that way. But its not just seven year, oh no! That would be too easy, it is seven years of years, not days. Hah! Clever, huh? Had you looking one way, and then [whoops!] jumped the other way. Head fake, serious head fake.
But it isn't really even seven years of years. It is really seven years of "prophetic years" (a concept not founded on Scripture) that are 360 days long. Now, you may be thinking, "Well, okay but I don't see any reason to apply fulfillments of other prophecies to this one unless the text indicates it."
Seven times 360 is 2520, from 607 B.C.E. (a starting point ONLY Jehovah's Witnesses use), application of "a day for a year" (again, not indicated in the text at all) brings you to 1914 A.D.
So, in 1914 Nebuchadnezzar finally got his kingdom restored to him, and merrymaking was enjoyed by all.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
.
i was talking to someone at my new job - she has known me for about 3 months and had something like 2 five minute conversations with me about the jws.. she said "you do come across as really bitter about it".. (note she is definately not a jw).. it was a real eye opener, because although i try and educate people about the truth of jws, i didn't think i was "bitter".. what about you?
sirona
leslierichards,
FIRST of all, Welcome!!!
I think the bitterness comes from a regret of choices wasted, paths not taken, organizational hypocrisy, prophecies unfilfilled, betrayals from trusted people, and dreams not realized. In my case, I confess to some bitterness due to having used my youth the way I did.
I also have bitterness about what this organization has done to the minds of those I love, convincing them of things that just aren't true and claimingthe Bible says things that it simply does not say.
I hope that answers your question. I am not bitter about not having friends, I have great friends and plenty of 'em. Many of them shun me, even though I am not DF'd or DA'd. Those who don't are true friends, because I have done nothing more than challenge JW doctrine for Scriptural basis.
The organization claims God and the Bible belong to the organization, instead of claiming the organization belongs to God and the Bible. And that's why I'm bitter. Because of the ruined lives and wasted human potential in its wake.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
when an apostate(a) and jw having a conversation.. a : in genesis 1:26 with who was god speaking to ?
gen 1:26 and god went on to say: let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.
jw : on that verse?
Schizm: In all my years of association with the WTS I've never heard or read of that in the publications.
Well, at least he can't make that claim anymore! One down, how many thousands to go...
