Posts by Ticker

139

What evidence is there for Jesus (NOT USING THE BIBLE)?

by punkofnice in

i have often wondered if there is any actual archealogical evidence that jesus existed other than the claims of the bible.. i don't want to go down the route of 'you can't prove he didn't exist' as this is tiresome.

or 'well pontius pilate existed we found a stone with his name on so it follows jesus existed!

' that won't cut it.

Ticker

Band on the Run the reference is from Haberman and Liconus - The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus Pg. 212. They are referring to a pre-Pauline credal statement. According to the experts it meets the historical reliability.

25

AWAKE! misquote concerning Higher Education

by DATA-DOG in

check it out.

first, the article...... awake!

where can you get the best education?.

Ticker

They do it with the proof texts from the Bible to support unbiblical doctrine and they do it with secular qoutes. Selective snip out half sentances to try and change the overall context. They did this with Dr. J.R. Mantey to support their John 1:1 translation and he refuted them with a letter of rebuttal when he found out he was misquoted out of context.

It's blatant dishonesty in journalism but thats how they choose to manipulate their members thinking. Very sad and unfortunate for them, God would never condone twisting words to mislead people in fact he condemned it.

Good eye in catching this DD

139

What evidence is there for Jesus (NOT USING THE BIBLE)?

by punkofnice in

i have often wondered if there is any actual archealogical evidence that jesus existed other than the claims of the bible.. i don't want to go down the route of 'you can't prove he didn't exist' as this is tiresome.

or 'well pontius pilate existed we found a stone with his name on so it follows jesus existed!

' that won't cut it.

Ticker

Band on the Run do you consider Alexander the Great to be a mythical person. Only 5 ancient sources make up his know history written over 300 years after his existence with no eyewitnesses and yet no one claims he didn't exist.

In Jesus we have writings within 5 years of his death whether Christian or not is strong evidence. Never mind the mass amount of writings that have survived till today. 36,000 can you imagine how many there must have been originally. Then Tacitus a Roman Historian with more benefit to deny Jesus then mention him has acknowledge Jesus' existence. A man who was born roughly 20 years later and was literate with no influence of Christian teachings. Christ-myth theory has been refuted and almost all scholors accept Jesus being in existence. Thallus a pagan writes of Christ 20 years after his death. Even though Thallus' birth date is unknown it's not an illilogical possibility that he was a contemporary or at least was likely a child around the death of Christ.

One can close their eyes to this and stand stubborn in the minority and deny Christ ever existed but is this really being fair or rather being biased?

139

What evidence is there for Jesus (NOT USING THE BIBLE)?

by punkofnice in

i have often wondered if there is any actual archealogical evidence that jesus existed other than the claims of the bible.. i don't want to go down the route of 'you can't prove he didn't exist' as this is tiresome.

or 'well pontius pilate existed we found a stone with his name on so it follows jesus existed!

' that won't cut it.

Ticker

Someone said there were no mention of Jesus in contemporary literature. This is not true. Two Caesars make mention of Jesus and the Christians as well a Roman officials. Tacitus(ad55-120) and Seutonius(ad69-130) two early Roman historians acknowledge Jesus as being a real person. Tacitus even stated that Christus had lived during the reign of Tiberius, suffered under Pontius Pilate, that Jesus teachings had spread to Rome, that Christians were considered criminals and tortured in a variety of ways including crusifixion. There are also Pagan sources such as Thallus, Phlagon, Mara Bar-Serapion, and Lucien of Samosate. Thallus' remarks about Jesus were written a mere twenty years after Jesus. 9 early non-Christian secular writers all mention Jesus as a real person. The exact same number mention Tiberius but no one questions his existence.

There are thousands of early Christian letters, sermons, commentaries, and creeds about Jesus appearing as early as 5 years after his crusifixion. In total there are over 36,000 of such non-Biblical writings, many from the 1st century, that if compiled could reconstruct the new testament minus a few verses. Look at the historical impact alone that Jesus has had.

No academically honest scholor whether Christian, Agnostic, or Atheist would deny the existance of Jesus as a person. Don't be miseld by that claim.

6

My JW Dad friend requested me on Facebook

by enigma1863 in

my dad just friend requested me on facebook.

although i told him i would accept his request i now dont think that would be a good idea.

ive made several posts that he would not like to read, and there are tags of photos of me..

Ticker

Use the privacy settings to limit what others or specific people can see on your profile.

23

They want it both ways

by jeremiah18:5-10 in

several years ago the wts stopped announcing individuals who were df'd as, "so-and-so has been disfellowshipped" and instead began announcing, "so-and-so is no longer one of jehovah's witnesses".

this seems to be rather important to me.

undoubtedly this change was fueled by legal issues raised by someone who was df'd and impacted in some way perhaps financially.

Ticker

I know of no cases where the Christian Churches enforce ex-communication. Rather from what I've seen is they reach out to anyone in need of help. They don't tend to stick their noses in anyones business either but leave it between the person and God as it should be. Each one accounts for their own sin.

It doesn't mean they condone gross misbehavior or would participate in it but they prefer to lend support rather then chastize because we are all sinners and screw ups so why condemn when we are just as guilty. Support works a lot better then punishment but of course the Watchtower chooses the latter as it's corrective measure. I don't recall any Christian who resorted to shunning someone and they would definetly not go through all the formalities. Even then they would never put a period of time on someone being expelled. We are not to judge.

The Catholic Church did and may still ex-communicate but that I am unsure of. I don't follow the Catholic doctrine nor am I knowledgable on it other then suprisingly it has some similarities to the Watchtower dogma. One being they ex-communicate or used to and they claim to be the only way to salvation.

32

I almost wished i took the blue pill....

by 20yearfader in

since joining this site and having my eyes opened,i find i'm now dealing with a lot of emotions that were suppressed.one being the passing of loved ones,in the org we were discouraged from showing proper emotions due to the fact that if you did you were considered weak since they the dearly departed were only sleeping.now im being bombarded with dreams of my loved ones that i,due to my brainwashing never had the emotional release that i should have had.i'm just wondering how others on this site are coping,and dealing with the fact that everything we was taught was false almost as a way to keep up under control,as we lost years and decades of time.i almost wish i keep my head and the sand and had taken the blue pill.what has helped you all deal with this ...new religion......no religion...etc.

Ticker

It is difficult as others have expressed. Your entire belief system and life were turned inside out due to the shattering of the Watchtower illusion. If you have a good support network you can trust use it to let out your feelings and gain support. Depending on if all your family and friends were in the religion you may not have that many people to lean on in times of need. Slowly branch out if you feel comfortable and begin to build new connections. Meet people through community events, meet up with others who have similar experiences, or even attend a Church. Not pushing any religion but you would gain a nice non-combative understanding support group that would be very different from the JW's.

The whole Watchtower experience can take years to digest before being able to put it behind you. Even then like some have said you may get flash backs. Best of luck my friend.

179

athiest this is for you!

by unstopableravens in

i have to give props to most athiest on jwn, for one thing, you guys dont run away, i have been having discussions on youtube with jw and it is so frustrating.

what makes it frustrating is unlike me and athiest ,the jw and myself both claim the same thing that the bible is gods word, almost everytime i get into a discussion with one they make a claim i show them bible verse and they have no answer, so they attack me other than the point i bring up, than they say om under satan control, all for just using the bible.

than they say not to contact them anymore.

Ticker

xchange thank you for the link. I did honor the information and gave it a good read. Heres my take on what was presented there.

To start with it's a rebuttal against Lee's research in his case for Christ. I will admit that I have not looked at that Case file of Lee's so I will have to assume that the author of the wikipedia rebuttal is being honest in the facts given, which I'm sure they are or they are very sincere in their conjecture of the evidence.

Good points were raised to give them due credit. What I did note though is they jump to the conclusion in Chapter 3 that Dr. Bruce Metzger used religous bias in not accepting the Gospel of Thomas. I find that statement not only dishonest but misleading. No where in the prior paragraph did Metzger claim he did not accept the Gospel of Thomas but merely stated that "Church councils squelched legitimate documents because they didn't like the picture of Jesus they portrayed." Obviously the bible was cannonized long before Metzger existed and he did not state he rejected these legitimate texts but rather was honest in saying the early councils had possibly due to not favoring these writings.

They also make the assumption that the bibles honesty in reporting is just to ensure they are using good propaganda metrics. As per quote "Just like modern day propagandists, the Gospel writers knew what they had to do." Where is the evidence to support this? They later claim that no one can possibly prophile someone 2000 years ago but yet in this very statement they claim to accurately prophile the writers of the Gospel's as propagandists. Does this not seem like double speak?

They also attack biblical archeology as errant, academically unaccepted, and void of any real proof. This statement obviously overlooks the large amount of supporting evidence uncovered in the "fertile cresent" that supports biblical accounts. To name just a few we have

"Behistun Inscription" which then led to the deciphering of over 22,000 other tablets containing parallel accounts of creation, the flood, and tower of Babel. The bibles mention of Hittites were another point of mockery critics used until toward the end of the 19th century Hittite monuments were uncovered at Carcemish proving the Bible correct. Now they no longer question this.
In 1974 17,000 cuniform tablets and fragments were discovered in Northern Syria with similar tables found in Egypt and Mesopotamia. They were dated prior to the 24th century Nochian flood showing writing was common centuries before Moses silencing the claims that Moses and his contemporaries were illiterate and that Ezra was the author of the Pentateuch in the 5th century.
The biblical account of the Jewish Captivity was branded a fairy tale of Jewish folklore. Then in 1935-38 21 "Lachish Ostraca" inscribed pottery fragments wrote in ancient Hebrew script proved the account to be accurate. Also many more Babylonian historical texts have been discovered since 1930 that also show Nebuchadnezzer's conquest. Historical authenticity of Babylonian captivity is widely accpeted and firmly established.
Cylinder of Nabonidus which proved the Bibles accuracy of Belshazzar's existence as a historical figure.
Pool of Siloam where Jesus healed the blind man - John 9:1-7 Scholors had claimed this pool did not exist however it was discovered in 2005 thus again attesting to archeology supporting biblical history. I could carry one with many more examples but I feel the point of this is made. To consider bible archeology as just bunk is like having tunnel vision with all the facts around you. Or it's a biased personal opinion of the articles author.

Now the article swings it's focus on the validity of Jesus even being a historical figure and attempt to dismiss him as a mythical being. This is known as the Christ-myth theory. A good counter argument put forth is we all agree on the validity of Alexander the Great even though there are no personal accounts, not one, only five ancient sources written 300 plus years after his existence. However no question is made to Alexander being who he was due to archeology and impact on history.

Now we have Jesus in which there is archeological evidence for his being, early Christian and non-Christian accounts, early New Testament Manuscripts from 125CE and possibly even 70CE, as well as historical impact.

Historical impact is no question so we can easily conclude this point.
Archeology - 1961 discovery of limestone inscribed with "Ponteus Pilate Prefect of Judea" and in 1990 the discovery of an ossuary with the inscription of "Caiaphas". This lends support to the trial of Jesus. December 21, 2009 discovery of first century clay shards in Nazareth confirming it's existence during the time of Christ. Now look at what the author in the rebuttel states in Chapter 5 "no references to Nazareth can be found in any written source outside the Gospels before the 4th century." Either this author is oblivious to this discovery, they have failed to update this article, or they are being outright decietful to the facts. The last two prove dishonest and the first proves ignorance.
Non-Christian accounts - Josephus - While the author is correct that some of Josephus' words are in dispute he makes an erronous assumption in broadly claiming them all to be forgeries. Josephus' confirmation of Jesus' existence to the contrary of the article is widely accepted by scholors.(Macdowell and Wilson, 42-43). We also have Israeli Scholor Schlomo Pines states that even the most bitter opponents of Christianity never deny the existence of Christ. Will Durant also emphasized that no Jew or Gentile from the 1st century denied Christ' existence. Then there is the early Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius that acknowledge Jesus as a real person. Also Roman officials along with 2 Caesars who wrote letters mentioning Jesus and the early Christian orgins. Emporors Trajan(ad 56-117) and Hadrian(ad 76-136) Multiple Pagan sources of Jesus existence including Thallus in ad 52 a mere 20 years after Christ. Altogether a total of 42 Christian and Non-Christian sources compared with a mere 10 for Tiberius.

I'm not saying this author doesn't have some valid points of discussion but his claims of biased journalism might be directed also at his own conjectures. Seems many of Lee Strobel's do indeed hold up to proper scrutiny. I agree that maybe Lee should have had interviewed some atheists to get their view instead of playing the Devil's advocate but we must remember he too was an atheist so he could understand their view in attempting to represent a fair argument. I think Lee did the best he could from that standpoint as it was this project that changed his view on atheism.

179

athiest this is for you!

by unstopableravens in

i have to give props to most athiest on jwn, for one thing, you guys dont run away, i have been having discussions on youtube with jw and it is so frustrating.

what makes it frustrating is unlike me and athiest ,the jw and myself both claim the same thing that the bible is gods word, almost everytime i get into a discussion with one they make a claim i show them bible verse and they have no answer, so they attack me other than the point i bring up, than they say om under satan control, all for just using the bible.

than they say not to contact them anymore.

Ticker

Lee Strobel who was a former atheist wrote a good book on this topic. In fact I believe there is a whole chapter devoted to why God allowded children to die. Google "The Case For Faith", it is straight forward unbiased and takes all views into perspective. There is a video with the same title that highlights this as well that is worth the watch. He began an in depth search on the biblical claims of Jesus after his wifes conversion. As a result of the evidence he discovered he became a Christian himself.

Faith is not an easy thing to build and can be even harder to keep when we don't quite understand why things are so in the world. The example of Charles Tempelton that is mentioned in the video is a good example of this. I'll disclose that I too struggled with my faith soon after I left the Watchtower organization. I can relate to the feeling. For years I was in turmoil as what to believe and if God even existed. Still I kept an open mind, did my own research on many of these points that people stumble over, and was able to conclude that indeed there is a creator. Science did not contrast with creation but the two actually harmonize very nicely. Other aspects of why things were so in the bible started to make sense. I asked many of these hard questions and they were hard! I did find comfort in knowing that God does exist.

I would encourage keeping an open mind. Science is not always so cut and dry or black and white. We as humans can only comprehend a 4 dimensional world. Science has found 6 other dimensions beyond this that are spiritual. There are 10 dimensions and probably 11 in total. This might seem unimaginable but I assure you physics has show these dimensions to be very probable.

17

Any successful methods to discreetly reach out to someone who is studying?

by sseveninches in

my father had me go with him to do a study, and the guy looked like he's a pretty smart guy, and he was asking legitimate questions that i had my own answers to, but of course i couldn't say them.. i'm wondering if anyone has successfully been able to convince/warn anyone that they're getting sucked into a cult.

i wanted to just secretly slip him a note, but i'm always scared to do that from fear of the person throwing me under the bus.

then i got the idea of sending him a text message from a number that can't be traced back to me.

Ticker

Oh forgot to mention but I'm sure you would do this but if you do feel you can tell him just be sure to let him know that "mum's the word." This way he won't slip up and say anything about the source. Another suggestion is point him to youtube. Lot's of good information on there as well. Really effective if they are a visual learner rather then literary.