i was quite surprized when a relative of mine needed a ride to the district assembly and couldn't find one.. what surprized me was two older sisters, who have been utterly faithful over the years,separately said they aren't going.. we already know the watchtower is losing witness kids enmasse but this looks unusual.
what's left for old-timers anyway?
all the urgent depth of doctrine is gone - the society can't defend anything.
As I have posted before, I was born into the org., believed it for 54 years, then left. I really didn't question the org. most of my life. It wasn't until I had personal trouble, and was in committee meetings, and saw the "love" of the witnesses in general, that I decided it could not possibly be "Jehovah's organization"
I am thankful to the elders and other "loving" JWs for helping me "out".
Borgfree
for those not familiar with brci, it was founded to assist ex-jws to readjust themselves as former jws.
it is not abouit bashing the watchtower religion.
brci itself is not a religion and does not try to get people to leave the jws, nor does it lead people to any religious organization.
I thank you too, Amazing. I haven't been to BRCI in several years and I enjoyed your report. I am going to Dan Hall's convention in San Francisco next month, do you have any plans to be there?
Borgfree
i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.
are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.
christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.
Hillary_Step and Abaddon,
You have given me a lot of information that I will have to consider and research. I will admit I have had problems with some of the writings in the Old Testiment.
Borgfree
i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.
are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.
christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.
Hillary_Step,
I personally think humans have been on the earth far longer than 6000 years. I haven't done an in depth study on that subject so I may be wrong, but I am not sure the bible limits man to 6000 years. Doesn't the bible count in generations? I will need to re-read the genesis account before I can give a better comment. That is just what pops into my mind at the moment.
Are you referring to the two lineages for Jesus in Luke?
Borgfree
i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.
are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.
christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.
Rem,
No, I do not think I am the first to think of those questions, but, scientists sometimes act like absent minded professors, the hubble for example. Spending millions of taxpayer dollars to send it into space. Someone could have asked the dumb question,"are you sure the lenses are correct" but it took another shuttle mission to actually correct the lenses before the hubble worked properly.
Larc,
My point is, scientists sometimes make very bold statements, or maybe as someone said, the media inaccurately reports what the scientists say, but in any case the average person receives the bold statements, and it doesn't seem like the scientists are in any hurry to correct those statements. I chose the rock as an example.
I have to disagree with your statement:
Sometimes, science is a matter of estimating the odds of a particular conclusion. While this method is not always correct, it is right more often than it is wrong, something you can not say for any religion or any religious book, when they address questions related to the natural world.
The bible is 2000 years old. Lets get a 2000 year old science book and see how accurate it is. I think much of the bible has been shown to be correct. There may be doubt in what is contained in the bible, but I personally do not believe it has been proven false.
Borgfree
i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.
are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.
christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.
Rem,
I can see merit in what you describe, using spectroscopy.
It is possible to tell where rocks come from through spectrochemical analysis or spectroscopy. We can even tell what elements are inside distant stars with the technique.
I still have to question the absoluteness of identifying a particular rock as coming from one certain planet.
Is it possible that another object in the universe could have the same elemental makeup? How could that be proved?
Is it possible that the atmosphere could have changed over millions of years on another planet etc. causing a difference in the elemental makeup of rocks, maybe differing from what can be observed today? Maybe different layers of different rocks on the same planet?
Is it possible that light being bent as it passes another object in space could have an effect on the data used by spectroscopy?
Borgfree
i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.
are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.
christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.
Logansrun,
Sorry, your post has not been showing up on my screen.
Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't mean that it's not true.
I agree, I still claim my right to my opinion.
I take great exception to your implications of scientists as "changing facts" and that they are no better or any more trustworthy than theologians.
I think I am remembering correctly, that it was scientists, who told us bacon was very bad for us, for some reasons, then it is not bad for us. Coffee was very bad for us then it wasn't. Milk, same thing, and many other food items and medicines, etc. I could be wrong but I do think it was scientists who were making those decisions.
Do yourself a favor and educate yourself in science before you make outrageous claims.
I intend for my comments to be opinions and thoughts rather than outrageous claims.
Borgfree
i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.
are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.
christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.
Abaddon,
Religion and theism are static systems based upon an unchanging book. If new facts are discovered that don't fit the theories, the facts are challanged or they have to make changes in their theories, even though what the theory is based on (the book) is the same.This is a big difference. Which honestly do you think is a better choice for guiding your life?
If the Creator of everything, gave a book for His creatures to live by, wouldn't you expect it to be unchangeable?
If new facts are discovered that do not fit the theories it wouldn't prove the book wrong. It might prove the theories wrong. I agree with what D Wiltshire said above:
Christians should be leading the way to find out about God’s handiwork the universe instead of spouting off ridicule at Scholars that know far more about which they worked very hard to learn about.
I think that evolutionists should do the same. I do not think anyone on earth knows everything.
There are all kinds of people claiming to be Christian, some are very hard line in demanding that we believe exactly what has been taught for centuries, others try to be open to testing old beliefs and arriving at the truth.
It seems to me both sides could discuss the subject without either side saying "you are stupid", "you don't know what you are talking about", "first study all of the material on the subject before you comment" I think this example is what I am talking about:
Here you set an unreasonable requirement; you are not 'very knowledgeable in the field of science and evolution', but you say you 'do not believe there exists any technology that proves that "fact" no matter how sure the scientists are that it is a piece of Mars'.
We all know there are billions of planets, asteroids, comets, and other objects in the universe. Am I to believe the scientists can prove, that rock, came from Mars, rather than from earth, or any one of those billions of orbiting objects? Can the scientists prove that the minerals in that rock are found only on Mars? I think common sense would tell us they cannot, whether we have read all of the science books or not.
Of course they aren't. But you don't have the knowledge to evaluate their arguments, and rather than seeking to get the tools to evaluate their arguments...
I agree, I still think there are areas where we can just use logic to determine whether something is believable or not.
... you cling to your old beliefs even though you admit you can't evaluate the truth of what scientists say. Is that reasonable? You have basically, without knowing about it, decided science is wrong
I was raised from birth on the teachings of the bible. Yes, I cling to them, and have faith in the God of the bible. I have never had an interest in studying evolution, however I will remain open to change, if the facts prove that I should change. You are wrong about my opinion of science. As a JW student in school I loved science, and in fact, had a desire to be a scientist. Of course that did not meet with the approval of the WT org.
Borgfree
i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.
are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.
christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.
Abaddon,
I am leaving now for work, but will take just a moment to reply to the last statement you made, I will take more time, when I can, at work, to answer more.
and are now buying a book that you know will at least in part tell you what you've already decided to believe.
I really do not know anything about the book or the author.
Borgfree
i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.
are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.
christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.
Larc,
I am sure there are many facts that are claimed to support evolution. I just do not personally trust scientists any more than I do theologians. Over my life time I have seen scientists change "facts" many times.
I suppose, if I were very knowledgeable in the field of science and evolution, I would have fewer doubts about their findings, but based on my very limited knowledge, I just cannot accept, simply because a scientist says so, that some of their findings are legitimate.
I cannot believe, for example, that such prouncements, like the rock being found in Alaska, or wherever it was, is a chunk of Mars. I do not believe there exists any technology that proves that "fact" no matter how sure the scientists are that it is a piece of Mars. I have used that example before, but there are many pronouncements like that, that have had to be changed over the years.
Scientists are no more infallible than the Pope.
As a Christian, I believe that creation testifies to the existence of the Creator. I have, and I am sure you have, marveled at the vast amount of life forms and the huge variety of other life on this planet and the beauty of the awesome universe.
I think we might be like a computer chip that argues that there is no proof that a human exists, let alone that some human has any control over such a marvelous "being" as the computer.
Just my thoughts.
Borgfree
