Posts by Check_Your

Beyond the individual level, what about the macro level. How does the belief in meaning beyond what we can arrive with ourselves as a starting point, effect societies as a whole. Without a higher purpose for our existence, we have only our existence. We only have our life. The funny thing is how wretched, nihilistic, and cowardly a man with nothing he can care about beyond his own skin can become. We see it now in the post-modern Western world, as it can't even muster enough energy to defend itself from a mindless, backward, 12th century caliphate. It's only weapon, and the only one it needs is that it believes in something and it's enemy does not.

This is an excerpt from Wretchard the cat at http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/

He discusses the issue from the perspective of modern liberalism, but you could replace athiesm with liberalism and the excerpt would hold (since athiesm is a tenet of modern liberalism)

Tuesday, January 03, 2006

Kimball and Steyn on the end of the West

Two essays in the New Criterion talk about the West almost in the past tense. Roger Kimball's After the suicide of the West pronounces his post-mortem: a civilization suicided from despair; death from want of a reason to live. The contradiction within liberalism -- within multiculturalism -- Kimball argues, is that it unwilling to believe in anything definite, even in itself.
... an essay called “The Self-Poisoning of the Open Society,” ... dilates on this basic antinomy of liberalism. Liberalism implies openness to other points of view, even ... those points of view whose success would destroy liberalism. But tolerance to those points of view is a prescription for suicide. ... As Robert Frost once put it, a liberal is someone who refuses to take his own part in an argument.
And having emptied life of belief, liberalism has not coincidentally also emptied it of meaning. Kimball quotes Douglas Murray to evoke the atmosphere of a civilization partying frenetically on the brink of black nothingness.
It may be no sin -- may indeed be one of our society’s most appealing traits -- that we love life. But the scales, as in so many things, have tipped to an extreme. From seeing so much for which we would live, people in our society now see fewer and fewer causes for which they would die. We have passed to a point where prolongation is all. We have become like the parents of Admetos in Euripides’ Alcestis -- "walking cadavers," unwilling to give up the few remaining days (in Europe’s case, of its peace dividend) even if only by doing so can any generational future be assured.
Liberalism's first step is to render the past, with its ties to memory and tradition, despicable and valueless. From there it inevitably proceeds to make the future futile. The "me" generation is liberated not only from its myths but also from its dreams. Kimball cites James Burnham. Modern liberalism, Burnham writes:
does not offer ordinary men compelling motives for personal suffering, sacrifice, and death. There is no tragic dimension in its picture of the good life. Men become willing to endure, sacrifice, and die for God, for family, king, honor, country, from a sense of absolute duty or an exalted vision of the meaning of history… . And it is precisely these ideas and institutions that liberalism has criticized, attacked, and in part overthrown as superstitious, archaic, reactionary, and irrational. In their place liberalism proposes a set of pale and bloodless abstractions—pale and bloodless for the very reason that they have no roots in the past, in deep feeling and in suffering. Except for mercenaries, saints, and neurotics, no one is willing to sacrifice and die for progressive education, medicare, humanity in the abstract, the United Nations, and a ten percent rise in Social Security payments.
From Kimball's perspective the contest between Islam and liberal civilization is not simply between East and West, but between the living and the dying.

How then should we live? Why do we keep bumping into this wall of needing meaning in our life if it is in fact reality that our life has no meaning? Have we yet to evolve to where we accept the meaningless of our existence?

Again, Terry, welcome back.

CYP

31

Hint of disillusionment among bethelites regarding downsizing?

by watch the tower in

here is an email i got from a jw friend regarding the downsizing.. can you sense the uneasiness in the last part of the message?.

"bros vandewall, jaracz, pierce and weaver gave a talk.

to the bethelites after the watchtower study monday.

Check_Your_Premises

Does anyone know how many people we are talking here?

CYP

59

What MUST Jw's believe that they don't KNOW they believe?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i'm looking for beliefs of jw's that have the consequence of also requiring some other belief that they may not like or be able to explain.. for instance, you probably believe that there are an infinite number of numbers, since you can always add 1 to any number and make a new one.. what you may not think about as a consequence of that belief is that you can also start with 2, add 2, and create an infinite series of even numbers.

the set of even numbers is infinite, and the set of whole numbers (which would fully encompass the even numbers) is also infinite.

so which set is bigger?

Check_Your_Premises

Bravo. Nice question. I must say you are outdoing min latley with all your questions. His are more therapeutic. Yours are probing the internal contradictions of the jw mind.

How about this one. Since any dub, once successfully confronted with the faulty logic of the scriptural basis for the blood doctrine, will then say "well I need to put my faith in God's arrangement or I risk my chance for eternal life" or some such gibberish. Do they realize by saying that, they are effectively saying there is nothing they won't do that the org commands.

Lie

Cheat

Murder

Rape

Pillage

Molest chilren

Give your kid cyanide laced kool-aid

They must obey God's arrangement.

If you said that to them, they would likely say "it isn't in the Bible", now if you just whacked with the blood thing, you can say, "well neither is the ban on blood transfusions". In all fairness, I don't think most dubs would do the above if it came out in the WT next week.

But some would.... think about it.

CYP

15

New Tradition around here: How to handle disfellowshipping commitees

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

i asked richie to do this, but he didn't get df'd... he got his priveleges reinstated!!!

anyone who remembers that one knows that richie came up with about the funniest picture anyone has ever posted here.

anyway.... i really want to start a collection here.

Check_Your_Premises

I asked Richie to do this, but he didn't get df'd... he got his priveleges reinstated!!! Anyone who remembers that one knows that Richie came up with about the funniest picture anyone has ever posted here. Anyway...

I really want to start a collection here. Say you are in the JC. You are acting all sad and scared and repentant. Then, right when they say you are df'd;

1. Pull out a digital camera

2. Utter some insult that you have pretty much always wanted to say to these clowns. Ask here if you need some ideas for a good insult.

3. At that moment, snap a picture of 'em. The expressions on their faces will be hilarious. The moment captured will be right when they were basking most in their power, and then suddenly they were humiliated and neutered. That is the moment you could capture. I think it would just be priceless!!!

4. Post said picture here for us to giggle our guts out over.

32

New year, new place, new life - ITIS and Freedomlover

by freedomlover in

jw
friends

if you have followed our story you know we were moving out of state to start over and get away from tons of extended jw family.. we are officially moved.

hundreds of miles away from our old life.

as i write this, i feel numb, cold, and very raw.

Check_Your_Premises

Congrats FL and ITIS!!!

I love you guys so much. I hope the move went off ok, as much as is possible I guess.

Take some time now and ...

...RELAX

CYP

43

What JW's are saying regarding the downsizing at Bethel

by jimbob in

jw
friends

i haven't posted anything for a while on jwd due to being busy with work and school, but this email was to much of a crack up not to post.

this was sent to my wife today from her old jw friend.

she forwarded it to me and i'm posting it with her permission.

Check_Your_Premises

should we apply that Scripture ( Not trusting Nobles) to them? I think not.

Are you saying that the WT is the same as Bible? It is the inspired word of God? Are you saying the JW are a prophet?

Are you saying we should put our conscience aside when God's ORGANIZATION does something we disagree with, or we think goes against God's will? Is there any example in the Bible where such behavior is condoned/accepted/rewarded by God?

For example, did God reward the faithful sheep who followed Aaron (God's faithful and discreet slave since Moses was busy at the time), in making a golden calf?

When Jesus arrived, God's ORGANIZATION conspired to kill him. Judas obeyed God's ORGANIZATION and betrayed Jesus. Was his obedience to His ORGANIZATION against His wishes rewarded or punished? Help me out. I forget?

CYP

33

Hi ~ new here...

by Riverwatcher in

jw
friends

i'm so happy to have found this site.

i'm not a j/w, but my son is.

several years ago, he became involved with a j/w, although she was being shunned at the time.

Check_Your_Premises

RW,

Looks like you have been given a broad range of advice and info. You have a lot to chew on. Be sure to give us an update in a couple of weeks or so.

CYP

33

Hi ~ new here...

by Riverwatcher in

jw
friends

i'm so happy to have found this site.

i'm not a j/w, but my son is.

several years ago, he became involved with a j/w, although she was being shunned at the time.

Check_Your_Premises

With all due respect to Mr. Van Gogh, I don't recommend Crisis of Conscience as a first read. It is a VERY good book if you are a JW. But I have heard other non-jw's, and from my own personal experience, that COC is kind of hard to follow if you aren't/weren't ever a dub.

First thing you need to do is keep the trust built up with your son.

Second learn about cults. Helping someone out of a cult is a process, and not simply a matter of finding information to refute his belief system. You have to understand that mind control does not allow rational thought processes to penetrate the protective wall of the cult identity.

Next, learn about the JW. I am not sure what is the best choice here for an outsider. I sure haven't read a better one then COC. But there are hundreds of pages that left me with a ? One that isn't to bad for building an argument against the WT being divinely chosen is Captives of a Concept. It has a tight line of reasoning and relies only on JW literature to make it's case. That is nice because you can literally spend years unraveling the JW web of lies. Look for what has the mosts bang for the buck and will matter most to your son. You will find that the WT has been extremely arrogant over the years, and said a great many silly things. There is a site that is dedicated to simply quoting the WT, www.reexamine.org

Some more good info sites are freeminds.org, ajwrb.org, silentlambs.org, brci.org, jwreform.org...

Go to the hall with him. He will just be ecstatic! Meet the folks at the hall. Ask them about their personal lives. Don't let them put you in a charicature. He will try to get you to start a study, try to avoid that!

That ought to keep you busy.

Spend plenty of time here asking questions. Try to enlist other family members. What is the status of her family?

And if you are a Christian, pray. Alot!

CYP

33

Hi ~ new here...

by Riverwatcher in

jw
friends

i'm so happy to have found this site.

i'm not a j/w, but my son is.

several years ago, he became involved with a j/w, although she was being shunned at the time.

Check_Your_Premises

Just adding to what Dave said;

Everything is based on trust. If he doesn't trust you, he won't talk to you. Dubs are teachers, never students. The way to get him to talk to you is to ask questions about his faith in a genuinely interested way. Once you have good trust, you can then ask him questions that might challenge or alter his perspective.

So sorry.

CYP

Check_Your_Premises

Posts by Check_Your_Premises

Tuesday, January 03, 2006

Kimball and Steyn on the end of the West