Posts by bennyk

64

Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance

by confliction in

jw
friends

hello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.

i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.

a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .

bennyk

djeggnog writes: "anyone teaching old doctrines are not Christians, are not worshipping the true God [...] An individual that teaches wrong doctrine wouldn't even be someone that Jehovah would have invited into His spiritual temple where He dwells in our midst in person, and not just in spirit, for God's temple is a Holy Place and only true worshippers of God can enter the God's temple. "

The Watch Tower Society itself does teach old doctrines (the identification of the "Generation" of Matthew chapter 24 as the "Anointed" was originally published as "Truth" in 1927).

Furthermore, according to the Society, they were "apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship":

W 01. April 1986 QfR:
Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: "Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.

You see, in 1919 -- the year in which the Society claims they were chosen by the Lord and appointed over all his belongings (WT, 15. March 1990, p.15) -- they were still teaching that the resurrection had begun in 1878 (WT 01. May 1919, Reprints p.6426), which view they continued to hold until 1927, and which view they now admit was false.

Do you honestly believe the Lord appointed over all his belongings an organisation that (by its own published standard) would be 'rightly branded apostate, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship'?

64

Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance

by confliction in

jw
friends

hello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.

i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.

a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .

bennyk

djeggnog writes: "Would you be disfellowshipped today from the Watchtower, if you believed and taught the Society’s doctrines of 1920? _____YES __x__NO"

Actually, according to the QfR in the 01. April 1986 Watchtower, the answer is "yes."

*** w86 4/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
Questions From Readers

Why have Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?

[...]

Approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah's sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a "faithful and discreet slave" upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus' earthly interests,' which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ's foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15-12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ's Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present "great crowd" of Jesus' "other sheep."-John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4."

In 1920, among other false doctrines, the official teaching of the Watch Tower Society was that the faithful and discreet slave" was C. T. Russell; that the Kingdom of God was established in the heavens in 1878, and that "Christ's foretold presence" had begun in 1874; that both the 144 000 and the "Great Crowd" would receive the heavenly reward... Therefore, one would indeed be disfellowshipped for believing and teaching the Society's doctrines of 1920.

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

bennyk

debator writes (post 115): "Witnesses are the first Christian group in 1700 years to go back to Preaching about Jehovah our Almighty God THROUGH his son Jesus and not putting his son Jesus in his father's place."

So... you're telling us that Almighty God had the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class (which the Watch Tower Society says has had a continual existence since 33 C.E.) preach for 1700 years what you believe to be a false doctrine? That's what you're telling us?

29

September 15th Watchtower is making me feel literally ill

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

...i can't believe how loaded it is with all manner of arrogance, organizational chest-thumping/idolatry, and i still haven't gotten to the last article yet!

i know...i shouldn't be reading it.

i just...need to know what's going on so i can at least know what's going into my family's heads.

bennyk

No, George. That may be true of some congregations, but it is not true of all congregations.

A brother I knew back in the day partook for a number of the years he served as an Elder, but was never counted. His fellow Elders on the Body denied his "profession". It was a populous city and I heard this was true of other congregations as well.

Additionally, non-Witness partakers are never counted.

91

Why did you leave the 'Organization'?

by XPeterX in

jw
friends

in a few words.....

bennyk

I disagreed with their false prophesying, unscriptural doctrines, and unchristian practices.

The kicker: I obtained pre-1914 copies of Russell's Studies in the Scriptures. I compared what I found there with the claims regarding that era which the Society published in literature found on the Watchtower Library cd-rom. It became exceedingly clear that the Society's post-1950 claims were untrue. I don't like lies, nor those that promulgate such lies in hundreds of millions of copies over a period of decades. (And who refer to their system of false teachings as "The Truth".)

11

What is the meaning in "Praying" for someone about to die ?

by chrisjoel in

jw
friends

im not sure i understand why we do this.

i met r.franz after i left jws and meeting him was a nice experience.

it was a kind of turning point in my life and i guess his books helped put the final nail in the coffin of my departure from jws.

bennyk

I am praying for someone about to lose her husband...

10

Funny things in augusts watchtower

by bohm in

jw
friends

i have been reading augusts watchtower between simulations today, and i stumbled upon some funny stuff in augusts watchtower.

first off - the author of the second article makes a bold move by referring to ancient watchtowers.

from the first page:.

bennyk

Page three of the Watch Tower Reprints explains why the magazine was being published:

PROSPECTUS

This is the first number of the first volume of “ZION’S WATCH~ TOWER,” and it may not be amiss to state the object of its publication.

That we are living “in the last days”-“the day of the Lord”-“the end” of the Gospel age, and consequently, in the dawn of the “new” age, are

facts not only discernible by the close student of the Word, led by the spirit, but the outward signs recognizable by the world bear the same testimony...

According to what the Watch Tower Society now teaches, none of those things were true.

116

Would Witnesses REALLY drink the "Kool-aid" if the faithful slave told them to? Yes or no?

by Witness 007 in

a "spiritual leader" tells his followers the must put on rebok running shoes and "drink the cool-aid" to join a ufo in the tail of a comet and "go to a better world" so, afew dozen young people do just that to get "beamed up" to the mothership.

heavens gate cult 1990's.. my mother says "she is faithful to the organisation till her death" which makes me wonder if they ordered a mass suicide like the reverend jim jones did to escape a "great tribulation"....how many witnesses would really drink the cool-aid?...

without a gun pointed at their head of course!.

bennyk

It is not a likely scenario. However, purely as idle musing...

What is published in The Watchtower is viewed by many Witnesses as the very words of Almighty God. The directives of the Governing Body are viewed as "Law" by many/most Elders. The Society has been very adroitly conditioning its followers to accept its interpretations unhesitatingly. Those who are viewed as "strong" Witnesses are those who question nothing.

The Society would first need to prune the Witness ranks of people who would vocalize their doubts regarding the Society's teachings and directives. The silly interpretation of the "Generation" would be followed by other such nonsense designed to remove independent thinkers. The Society would also need to pare the number of "weak" (nominal) Witnesses who could derail the scheme by their reluctance to follow the Society's every command.

The remaining Witnesses would be conditioned over a period of time to accept the idea that faithful death is preferable to life in "Satan's System of Things." Watchtower articles would revisit such scriptures as Psalms 116:15 ("Precious in the eyes of Jehovah is the death of his loyal ones.") and Luke 9:24 ("For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake is the one who will save it.")

Then, when extreme world conditions warrant it (war, pestilence, famine), an announcement would be made that all Witnesses (and only Witnesses -- the Faithful--) would be meeting on a specific day for a most special declaration of New Light from the Governing Body.

On that day, the CoBE would read an official letter from the Society stating that 'the Faithful Slave now understands that the Great Crowd's coming out of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 7:14) will occur today!!! The New Light given by Jehovah is that the "New Heavens and New Earth" of Revelation 21:1 are literal and already existing, and that Jehovah's people will be spared the evil coming upon the entire inhabited earth by being "transferred" as was Enoch. "And Enoch was no more, for God took him."!!! (Gen. 6:24).

Game over.

My speculation (based solely on my relatives and the people in the congregation I last attended): 20% of current Witnesses would drink...

20

In view of the short time left ....

by wannabefree in

*** w69 5/15 p. 312 have you been studying for six months?

in view of the short time left in which to do their work, jehovah's witnesses do not continue to study the bible with any who fail to respond to its.

urgent message within six months.

bennyk

Perhaps you had this in mind (?):

If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the 'last days' in 1914, Jesus foretold: 'This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.' Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way towards its finish, if not actually gone! This is why parents who base their lives on God's prophetic Word find it much more practical to direct their young ones into trades that do not require such long periods of additional schooling.
(Awake! 22. May 1969, p.15)

135

The generation changed is explained in the June 15'th WT!

by life is to short in

it is here in writing the new generation change.

on page 5 of the of the wt while talking about the annual meeting report.. "john barr gave the third and final talk.".

"john barr made clear that the gathering wound not continue indefinitely.

bennyk

" This latest nulite allows JW's to think that all the old-light was leading to this. Belief in the 1914 generation never passing away was the anchor of modern JW's. Here's what might go through a JW's mind:

"Why would God mislead us? Well, nulite says that was sort of, but not quite what the Governing Body should have discerned. Perhaps God didn't mislead us, but the 1914 generation would not pass away in some other way. The 1995 teaching was leading them toward letting go of the idea that it was a single lifetime. The 2008 change to "anointed" was finally getting on track and with 2010's clarification, we see there is really a need for urgency."

All the more reason to point out that the Watch Tower Society taught officially back as far as 1927 that the "generation" was more than a single lifetime, viz. the Anointed ("new creation") (Watch Tower, 15. Feb. 1927), and that they changed said supposed correct teaching to a falsehood they taught as God's truth for forty-six years.

W 15. July 1949, p. 215 par. 19
The generation of Jesus’ earthly days did not
thus see him arriving in Kingdom power. But that
generation was a prophetic illustration. It has its
modern counterpart in our generation from A.D. 1914
forward. This generation is the one that sees the Son
of man coming with the clouds of heaven as foretold
by Daniel, because in 1914, the year marking the end
of the Gentile times, Jehovah God gave the Kingdom
to him whose right it is.

Of course, Witnesses in general are entirely unaware of that 1927 Watch Tower...