We've discussed Dr. Ehrman and his ideas on this forum.
Posts by hmike
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6Former fundamentalist 'debunks' Bible
by insearchoftruth inhttp://www.cnn.com/2009/living/05/15/bible.critic/index.html.
he was also interviewed about a month or so ago on npr..
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65
Left the WT but why the loss of your faith in God?
by Luo bou to insure the wt deceived you with its claim to be god's channel but why for so many is there a subsequent loss of faith in god ?
it puzzles me and makes me wonder why they were jw's in the first place..
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hmike
AllTimeJeff said:
I don't like the fact that faith in god leads to so many turning off their brains and in some cases, becoming a liar.
You realize, of course, that there are many highly educated, reflective theists who would say that the same thing about atheists ("...so many turning off their brains and in some cases, becoming a liar"). It's a matter of the quality and quantity of evidence one possess, and how it's processed through the biases and filters. Faith need not be the result of "turning off their brains." Faith can come from the brain being fully engaged in an honest evaluation of information. We all see things differently because we all have different experiences and criteria that shape our perspectives. What information do we accept and what do we reject—and why? There are many pieces of the puzzle missing—how do we fill those in?
SOME of us may have conviction, or personal certainty about a position, but NONE of us has absolute certainty. I say let's work with that.
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Heart Beat Per Minute
by LouBelle ini've been sitting here "tikking" away on the pee cee, could feel my heart beat as i rested my hands.
so i took it - i'm averaging between 68 - 72 bpm.
my resting heart rate drops to about 60 (first thing in the morning).
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hmike
I have regular aerobic workouts like shamus, and am in the mid-40s in the morning, routinely in the 50-55 range during the day. When I'm tracking bpm during workouts (say, one hour), once I get into the 140-150s range, I try to keep it there, but I will work to push into the low 160s for a few minutes a few times.
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Apostles of Denial (1970) -- PDF!
by cabasilas ininformation on how to download the book apostles of denial (1970) by edmond c. gruss will be given at the end of this post.
before this, however, id like to present this introduction:.
apostles of denial a personal recollection and a tribute.
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hmike
I'm surprised some haven't heard of it.
Gruss also wrote a book titled "We Left Jehovah's Witnesses" which is actually a collection of personal testimonies. It's sitting on my bookshelf right next to "Apostles of Denial" and "Crisis of Conscience."
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Why all Christianity is repulsive to me
by portcontrol7 inthe crux of all christianity is that an omnipotent and loving god sent a human sacrifice to atone for the sins of a (fictional) man, knowing full well that he would be horribly tortured and mocked.
if that god existed (which i'm grateful he/she/it doesn't), i would be proud to oppose it.
there are 3 main types of christians in my opinion:.
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hmike
"Stupid is as stupid does."
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44
Matthew 5:48
by purplesofa in"you must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.
" matthew 5:48 .
ekhart tolle's book a new earth, he writes, chapter 6 last paragraph.
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hmike
The point is that it was not enough for him. He may have kept the letter of the law in it's simplest form, but his heart was not right, and the invitation of Jesus exposed that.
The part of your sentence which I have underlined nicely illustrates what I meant by "ethical suspicion": I for one don't read that in the text.
I think I understand your point and would agree with it. What can be said is that the man was not willing to pay the price Jesus quoted. It need not be a question of morals or ethics, but simply of making a wise or unwise choice, and our judgement of that is based on the value we ascribe to the options..."Is it worth the sacrifice?" To one it is, to another it is not. We all choose whether or not to make sacrifices for something we desire. The person who makes the choice is the only one who can answer, "Is it worth it?" although often not until much later. From the Bible's perspective, of course, forsaking eternal life or spiritual blessings in favor of temporal goods, comfort, or prestige is considered a poor choice.
Stepping back from the Matthean context, it might be worth remembering one important sentence from the Markan version (dropped by both Matthew and Luke): "Jesus looked at him and loved him"...
To me, this says that the young man was sincere in his request and answer. It does not have to mean he was accurate. I note that the man went away sad; he did not argue or go away cursing.
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44
Matthew 5:48
by purplesofa in"you must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.
" matthew 5:48 .
ekhart tolle's book a new earth, he writes, chapter 6 last paragraph.
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hmike
Do you think the listeners/readers were expected to believe the young man's statement that he kept those commandments?
Why wouldn't they? The theology of ethical suspicion, i.e. that nobody observes the Law, must not be assumed where it is not explicit. There is a long way from Paul's rhetorical use of this motif to Augustine's dogmatical assertion of original sin and subsequent moral impotence. The Synoptic dramas do not cast doubt in principle on "righteous" characters, although they do differ as to the role of Law observance in attaining "righteousness".
Actually, I wasn't thinking about "original sin." Looking at the specific commandments Jesus cited—against murder, adultery, stealing, false testimony, and in favor of honoring parents, and loving one's neighbor—in their simplest form, it would not be too difficult for someone to claim he has kept them. However, once someone begins to elaborate on what keeping those commands means, then he can run into problems. This was done in the latter books of Moses, and elaborated on even further by the teachers. Jesus then takes it even further when he elaborates on what is adultery and murder. What I'm thinking is that many people could say they've kept these commandments, and really believe it, but someone who knows that person could say, "What about the time you... ." The listeners/readers might consider how difficult it would be to make this claim.
Whether or not the young man actually kept the commands is not the point anyway, is it? The point is that it was not enough for him. He may have kept the letter of the law in it's simplest form, but his heart was not right, and the invitation of Jesus exposed that.
In not casting doubt on "righteous" characters, you're not including the religious leaders whom Jesus chastised?
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Matthew 5:48
by purplesofa in"you must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.
" matthew 5:48 .
ekhart tolle's book a new earth, he writes, chapter 6 last paragraph.
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hmike
Narkissos,
Thank you for your interest and reply.
- a positive connection is made between "entering life" and "keeping the commandments" (which also reflects the Jewish-[Christian] views).
I notice that in both Matthew and Luke, keeping the commandments was not enough to qualify the young man. I also find it interesting that the commandments Jesus quotes all deal with relating to people. He did not include the "greatest commandment" of Deut. 6:5 that he quotes in the synoptics. Do you think the listeners/readers were expected to believe the young man's statement that he kept those commandments?
it has often been noted that Luke's idealisation of poverty and concern about the poor reflects the pathos of the higher middle class rather than the practice and spiritualisation of poverty in some Jewish circles ( e.g. Essenes), to which Matthew is probably closer.
I agree with that for the most part. Whether the book was written by the physician who accompanied Paul or not, I do see it written by someone who was familiar with the worlds of wealth and poverty, and had taken a hard line against wealth because of the lack of compassion he had witnessed on the part of those with means. As I said in another thread about the use of "Blessed are you who are poor..." in Luke 6:20, and "Blessed are the poor in spirit..." in Matt. 5:3, I think Matthew was written or compiled by a man of means (whether a tax collector or not) who knew it was possible to be wealthy and humble and compassionate.
In the original language of Matt. 5:43-48, does it look like Jesus is instructing the disciples to imitate the Father in behavior (the way I understand it)? One alternative understanding would be that one attains perfection by being gracious. Another, along the lines suggested by quietlyleaving, is that one is already perfect and would simply be acting accordingly (a concept I think is foreign to Matthew).
Thank you.
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The average Witness just doesn't talk about doctrine anymore
by BonaFide inif you were "in the truth" for some years, you will remember this.
we used to have bible games at parties.
we used to discuss doctrinal matters in the car group in service, and at get-togethers.
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hmike
Just as a wild guess, I would say that discussing doctrine, esp. with those outside the WT, generates arguments and threatens to expose weaknesses, both counterproductive to bringing people in.
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Matthew 5:48
by purplesofa in"you must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.
" matthew 5:48 .
ekhart tolle's book a new earth, he writes, chapter 6 last paragraph.
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hmike
Interesting to compare this section of Matthew with the corresponding section of Luke:
Matt. 5: 38-48...
"You have heard that it was said, `Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
"You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Luke 6:27-36...
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even `sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even `sinners' do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even `sinners' lend to `sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
The message is the same in both—that the Father provides for the needs of people without regard to how they feel and act towards him; his grace is extended to all. Jesus challenges his disciples to follow the Father's example in their lives (and so, by doing what he does, be regarded as "sons"). However, notice the difference in the last verse. Matthew uses the word teleios, translated perfect, whereas Luke uses the word oiktirmos, translated merciful. To be merciful means to have regard for the needs of others, and is sometimes translated compassionate. Considering these two verses together, it looks like we can say that extending mercy or compassion to all—even those who are against the disciple—is the most mature, whole, and complete kind of action the disciple could undertake. This harmonizes well with other NT texts that speak of God's love (e. g., I Jo. 4:16, "God is love" and Jo. 3:16, "For God so loved the world...") and call for the faithful to extend love to others.
Perhaps Luke chose to use oiktirmos because he, most of any of the gospel writers, was an advocate of the poor and rejected, and wanted to be very clear about what Jesus was saying. Matthew, with a different background and choice of emphasis, looks at attaining the highest state righteousness, as if this maturity or completeness is the goal. Yet perfection and mercy are brought together in Matthew's story of the rich young man in 19:16-22...
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?""Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and `love your neighbor as yourself.' "
"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect [teleios] , go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
There are a host of other issues, linguistic and philosophical, that could be discussed here if there is interest. Perhaps leolaia would come back in, or maybe narkissos, to help out.