Posts by jaffacake

61

JWD WAS ABLE TO CONVINCE ME THE PARADISE WAS A MYTH BUT...

by stillAwitness in

jw
friends

the talk given today sounded pretty convincing.

facts were stated about how our body is designed to live forever (the brain, blood vessels etc) and how all these intricated details about the human body raises us to ask the question: "did not jehovah design us with the purpose of living forever?

now i've read the threads about how there just would not be enough room in the world for all those people.

jaffacake

A good thread. Just a couple of quick thoughts to throw in.

Firstly, when we learn from the Bible what it teaches about its own form, or its own meaning, we will realise that Adam and Eve were not two people, but were symbolic of the origins of humankind. The question of whether these two so-called individuals were intended to live forever just does not arise.

Confession,

13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

Not sure what you mean to say by quoting that scripture. For me it is confirmation that there will be no material earth. Like most of scriptures this is all symbolic not literal. It is clear to me that there will not be any earthly materialistic everlasting life, nor should such a materialistic form of spirituality be something any Christian would aspire to. Paul puts it bluntly "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50)

A new heaven and a new earth - a new cosmos will come into being as the physical passes away? The hope for eternal life is hope for life in the presence of the eternal God. The truth is that the fundamental reality, from which all else springs, is the reality of spirit. God is spirit (John 4:24). The JW vision is a very limited one, and a betrayal of what the Bible teaches. A tragically restricted view of the unlimitless love of God. It sadly appeals to the material desires of humankind, who can't let go of the physical. In my view JWs are a materialistic and worldly people.

24

If You Were Satan, How Would You Destroy the Watchtower?

by metatron in

jw
friends

jehovah's witnesses have survived hitler, stalin, and third world dictators too numerous to count.

126 years of false expectations.

have failed to dissuade them.

jaffacake

I don't understand this thread at all. Why on earth would Satan want any harm to come to the Watchtower organisation?

8

Are We Christ's Witnesses or Jehovah Witnesses?

by RevFrank in

jw
friends

no matter what the watchtower says, the watchtower turns their followers away from the bible.. let's look at isaiah 43:10........(nwths)..."you are my witnesses is the utterance of jehovah..even my servant whom i have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that i am the same one.

before me there was no god formed, and after me there continued to be none....11>i am jehovah and besides me there is no savior.".

but don't stop there....there's more..in acts 1:8...it says..."but you will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in jerusalem and in all judea and samaria and to the most distant part of the earth..".

jaffacake

Rev Frank,

Your post reminded me of a little quiz I made to try to get my newly baptized JW friend to learn that what the Bible teaches is different to what he is being taught.

By the way, why do people seem to polarise into trinitarian or arian - I am neither - both are more modern words & concepts than Christianity.

My little quiz for those thinking of becoming JWs:

Introduction

2 Corinthians 13:5 (

Keep testing whether YOU are in the faith, keep proving what YOU yourselves are. Or do YOU not recognize that Jesus Christ is in union with YOU?

The Bible alone (ideally the Translation) should be used to test your answers. Please try to answer all ten questions first without the Bible, then test your answers using the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).

Some answers may seem quite easy for Christians well versed in scriptures and don’t worry if some answers are repeated.

Question1. Whose WITNESSES should we be throughout the whole world?

Answer …………………………………………………………..(see Acts 1:8)

Question 2a Whose WITNESSES must we be?

Question 2b Bearing WITNESS to which NAME inspires ALL prophesying?

Answers …a……………………………………………………………………………. (see Rev 19:10)

b………………………………………………………………………. (see Rev 19:10)

Question 3. Whose word must be observed if we are never to see death at all?

Answer ……………………………………………………….(see John 8:51)

Question 4. Whose NAME allows us to have eternal life?

Answer: ……………………………………………………………………………. (see John 20:31)

A harder question

Question 5. How did Christ describe the type of men we must NOT follow?

Answer …………………………………………………………………………………………….

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………… (see Luke 21:8)

Another tough one

Question 6. After his death, when did Christ's presence start and when will it end?

Answer ………………………………………………………………………………………

………………………………………………………………………………………………………… (see Matthew 28:20)

Getting a bit personal now

Question 7. Are you spirit begotton, YES or NO?

Answer: ……………………………….

If not, can you still be a Christian and belong to Christ? YES or NO?

Answer: ………………………………………………………………………….…… (see Romans 8:9)

Question 8. Whose word is truth and will set you free?

Answer ……………………………………………………………………………. (see John 8:31,32)

Just for good measure

Question 9. Who is it that sets us free?

Answer: ………………………………………………………………………………. (see John 8:36)

Thank You. Please feel free to test your answers against the Christian Scriptures, preferably the Translation.

22

What Was I Agreeing to at my Baptism, Anyway?

by prophecor in

jw
friends

i was so awash with emotion during the day of my being baptised, i think i would've answered yes to having a root canal.

what was it i was swearing my allegiance to on that ominous day?

are there a standard set of questions that they ask all baptismal candidates at these cermonial offerings?

jaffacake

Watchtower 1 July 1955 page 411

“A Christian cannot be baptized in the name of the one actually doing the immersing or in the name of any man, nor in the name of any organisation, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This shows, amongst other things, that Christianity is not a denominational affair”.

Watchtower 1 October 1966 page 603

“We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organisation. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God Himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah.

According to Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus Christ told his disciples to baptize persons “in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” In the Apostolic days, Peter and others called on people to “repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

People were baptized into Christianity in similar ways to this for 1,900 years. For more than 100 years the Watchtower followed this Scriptural example as confirmed by the Watchtower CD:

Why, in June 1985, were the questions changed to remove “the Holy Spirit” against Christ’s clear command?

There was no explanation, just a comment in the 15 April 1987 Watchtower that the questions were “simplified” and reference to person being baptised “coming into intimate relationship with God and his earthly organisation.” Scriptures stress that baptism is into Christ only, and excludes earthly people, even the Apostles:

1 Corinthians 1:13

“Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?”

So why the reversal from the scriptural position stressed in the 1955 and 1966 Watchtowers?

Why is an earthly organisation led by fallible men now inserted into the “personal relationship with Jehovah”?

Should we really ignore Christ’s command and replace the Holy Spirit with a human organisation?

Is this another reason why millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Watchtower leaders are now acting as idol gods?

Matthew 12:32

“And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Holy Spirit: Baptizing In The Name Of

The holy spirit, which Jehovah prophesied that he would pour out in the last days, has not ceased to operate, for the remnant are still baptizing disciples of Christ in the name of that spirit. (Holy Spirit, 1976; pp. 148)

[Not now they are not. The Holy Spirit is replaced by the Spirit Directed Organisation!]

63

Aliens/UFO's...Do You Believe In Them?

by Legolas in

jw
friends

.

after reading another thread it got me thinking...how many here believe in aliens?

have you ever seen a ufo?

jaffacake

Yes and no!

They talked about Rendlesham, Roswell and Kecksburg..The ones he hosted.

Yes I believe there is a chance that somewhere in this universe there are likely to be other life forms, some of which could be as developed, or more developed than humanity.

No, I don't believe any alien life forms could have ever visited this planet, because of the limitations of physics, the distances involved etc. I certainly don't believe that any of the stories mentioned above are anything more than deliberate inventions to hide some very secrte but very terrestrial goings on. However I have not made a detailed study, just my instinct and belief.

26

Panic Crisis after talking to JW

by Genesis in

jw
friends

it's very strange what happened to me those days.

right now im leaving the borg and moving from my appart(im with a pioneer).

im keeping myself informed and right now im reading crisis of conscience by raymond franz.

jaffacake

After you have read Crisis of Conscience you may like to read the follow up - In Search of Christian Freedom. This explains so clearly, to those like me who still believe in God and Christ, why Jehovah's Witnesses have got it so wrong. It explains beautifully why JW teaching is seriously flawed and unbiblical. It showed me why I could be one of Jehovah's Witnesses or a Christian, but not both. The two faiths are incompatible with each other.

However, the most important breakthrough for me was What the Bible Really Teaches by Keith Ward (a non JW related book).

61

JWD WAS ABLE TO CONVINCE ME THE PARADISE WAS A MYTH BUT...

by stillAwitness in

jw
friends

the talk given today sounded pretty convincing.

facts were stated about how our body is designed to live forever (the brain, blood vessels etc) and how all these intricated details about the human body raises us to ask the question: "did not jehovah design us with the purpose of living forever?

now i've read the threads about how there just would not be enough room in the world for all those people.

jaffacake

The Bible is very important to me. I have learned just this year how to begin to understand it. For years I tried to make sense of its contradictions and paradoxes which will always persist while we fail to apply proper interpretation principles.

The Bible does not teach a paradise earth, which is indeed a myth. It clearly teaches something very different from that materialistic hope. I don't know where to start. But a breakthrough for me was a book I stumbled across. http://www.spck.org.uk/cat/show.php/0281056803

20

Watchtower publications Quotes you'd like to share

by dannyboy in

jw
friends

please give examples of noteworthy quotations from publications of the watchtower society.

examples could include where they have contradicted themselves, have been inconsistent with logic, have been patronizing, or how what was written rocked you back.

think about quotes that would be helpful to a sincere witness or "newly interested" person in seeing the watchtower society for what it really is.

jaffacake

The Society's former president, Frederick W. Franz, in the morning Bible discussion for the headquarters family on

"The sole purpose of our existence as a Society is to announce the Kingdom established in 1914 and to sound the warning of the fall of the Great. We have a special message to deliver."

20

Watchtower publications Quotes you'd like to share

by dannyboy in

jw
friends

please give examples of noteworthy quotations from publications of the watchtower society.

examples could include where they have contradicted themselves, have been inconsistent with logic, have been patronizing, or how what was written rocked you back.

think about quotes that would be helpful to a sincere witness or "newly interested" person in seeing the watchtower society for what it really is.

jaffacake

Watchtower 1881 by the President C T Russell

“..their organization was of Spirit; their law for the government of each was love, and all as a whole were put under obedience to ‘the law of the Spirit’ as it was expressed in the life, actions and words of their Lord…”

“..it is clearly seen that these present day churches…interpret and enforce the ‘traditions of the elders’ which ‘make void the Word of God.’ These take the place of the true Head of the Church – Jesus and the true teacher and guide to all truth, the Holy Spirit. Hear the prophet Isaiah express it (chap

“This brings us to our second preposition, viz that all Christians should be joined to this organisation… But says one; Must I not join some organisation on earth, assent to some creed and have my name written on earth? No. Remember that Jesus is your pattern and teacher, and neither in his words or acts will you find any authority for binding yourselves with creeds or traditions of the elders, which all tend to make the word of God of none effect (Mark 7:13) and bring you under a bondage that will hinder your growth in grace and knowledge, and against which Paul warned you to ‘stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made you free, and be not entangled with the yoke of bondage (Gal 5:1}”

Watchtower 1882 April, Questions & Answers

“We are strictly unsectarian…(read 1 Cor 3:1-4)…we have no creed (fence) to bind us together or keep others out of our company. The Bible is our only Standard, and its teachings our only creed…We are in fellowship with all Christians in whom we can recognise the Spirit of Christ, and especially with those who recognise the Bible as the only Standard. We do not require therefore that all should see just as we do in order to be called Christians, realising that growth and knowledge is a gradual process; nor do we see reason to expect that any but the Watchmen of Zion will ‘see eye to eye (Isa 52:8) until that which is perfect is come..(1 Cor ).”

“If all Christians were to thus free themselves from prescribed creeds, and study the Word of God without denominational bias, truth and knowledge and real Christian fellowship and unity would result. The Spirit of the Head would pervade the unfettered members of the Body and sectarian pride would vanish.”

Watchtower 1884 February

“We belong to no earthly organization…we adhere only to that heavenly organization ‘whose names are written in heaven’ (Heb Luke )”

“What think you?...suppose…all man made creeds and forms …and names were laid aside, or that all Christians met in the One name of Christ, and in earnest simplicity, studied HIS words under the direction of God’s Spirit and the explanations furnished in the Apostles’ writings, would there be long and serious differences, even of opinion?... And so, by whatsoever names men may call us, it matters not to us; we acknowledge none other name than ‘the only name given under heaven and among men’ – Jesus Christ. We call ourselves simply CHRISTIANS and we raise no fence to separate from us any who believe in the foundation stone of our building mentioned by Paul: ‘that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures’; and those for whom this is not broad enough have no right to the name Christian.”

WT 1895 15 September article “How to Conduct Group Meetings”

“Beware of ‘organisation’. It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others’ consciences and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God’s word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day”.

20

Watchtower publications Quotes you'd like to share

by dannyboy in

jw
friends

please give examples of noteworthy quotations from publications of the watchtower society.

examples could include where they have contradicted themselves, have been inconsistent with logic, have been patronizing, or how what was written rocked you back.

think about quotes that would be helpful to a sincere witness or "newly interested" person in seeing the watchtower society for what it really is.

jaffacake

Watchtower 1946 Nov 1 page 330, Article “Let God Prove to be True”

“The divisive force among the Catholic and Protestant religionists of Christendom is the religious traditions which they follow. The truth of the Bible is a unifying power. After Christ Jesus prayed: ‘Sanctify them through thy Word: thy Word is truth,’ he immediately prayed that all his believers, those then following him and those yet due to believe, should be united in one, just as he and His heavenly Father are one (John 17:17-23)”

....“How is disunity over each one’s individual interpretation of the Holy Scriptures now overcome or avoided? Is it because they are united around a visible human organization or around a visible human leader? The answer is No. It is because they recognize Jehovah God and Christ Jesus as The Higher Powers to whom every Christian soul must be subject for conscience’ sake (Romans 13:1)

“ Hence Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be what the religious Hierarchy claims their religious organization to be, namely, the one holding the magisterium or teaching office and hence ”the Divinely appointed Custodian and Interpreter of the Bible.”

....“The written Word of God does not therefore need the addition of traditions which are the private interpretations of man and of religious organisations. It is not on our own authority that we say the Bible is sufficient without such. The inspired Apostle, Paul, writes his faithful and fellow worker Timothy to that effect saying: ‘from thy infancy thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Jesus Christ. All Scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.” (2 Tim 3:15-17)

Had the oral traditions of religious men been necessary to complement the Canon of the Bible, Paul would not have said that the inspired Holy Scriptures were profitable to the point of making the men of God perfect in faith and devotion to God. It would have been inadequate and would have left the man of God unperfected…(quotes 2 Tim