and even if you want to use the word obeisance please refer to the verse up above I posted in Acts...and ask yourself how Peter reacted when receiving, as the NWT puts it...obeisance....The NWT translates Cornelius bowing down to Peter as obeisance and Peter still tells him not to do this as he is just a man.
isaacaustin
JoinedPosts by isaacaustin
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421
jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.
by reniaa ini thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
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421
jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.
by reniaa ini thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
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isaacaustin
actually Sacolton, the WT admitted in a WT article- I can find it but need time if you want- they they do preach a different gospel than that taiught by the apostles. I believe they said more is needed...
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isaacaustin
IC. I will include in my prayers both your gradnchildren who do talk with you as well as your daughter and her children who do not. What is impossible with man is not so with the Lord.
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isaacaustin
Grace, your family does not shun you?
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The indoctrination of HATE!
by sacolton in"we hate them [former members]..." (the watchtower, 6/15/80, p.
"... in order to hate what is bad, a [jw] must hate the person..." (the watchtower, 7/15/61, p.
"we must hate in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest.
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isaacaustin
the way I saw it Jesus showed much love to the sinners and those who had fallen away while he had the strongest words for those who were the experts of the Law...kinda makes you think of the GB doesn't it?
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421
jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.
by reniaa ini thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
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isaacaustin
The fact is that the Apostles worshiped Jesus and you cannot worship anyone but God.
Lovelylil,
Of course you can. The word worship was also used for people in scripture with no problem. I have examples in my manuscript. It is another word with other meanings like this. And God himself made this a feature of Christ's ministry and Kingdom. Old testament restrictions have been lifted in His case. Like growing up, once we have the basics down pat. The problem it however that most do not. It is like an inheritance in our Lord's case, given as a gift at His second coming.. Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. This is the way it will be at that time. The angels (actually resurrected or changed human beings in this verse that are witnesses to this reality) worship Him. And there are other forms of worship that apply to Kings which are in keeping with this word. Do not mis-apply it in some absolute sense never intended. The apostles or anyone else worship as they could for a King and yet they know the kind of worship that can only be directed to YHWH so they were not confused. Like the word God where the wrong meanings are used, we have a like situation where a foundation laid improperly muddles the thought or applies it improperly.
My reply: How did Peter reply when given worship? Acts 10:
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- When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and, falling at his feet, paid him homage.
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- Peter, however, raised him up, saying, "Get up. I myself am also a human being."
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1914 The End of the Gentile Times?
by sacolton indid the watchtower claim that the scripture at luke 21:24 had been fulfilled?.
they will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations.
jerusalem will be trampled on by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.. .
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isaacaustin
Yes Sacolton...originally it was prophecied that in that year everything would be completed. When it failed they simply said it had been accomplished...invisibly....
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421
jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.
by reniaa ini thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
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isaacaustin
hi isaacaustin you replied this to the hebrews scripture
Made so much better- from the point of his having emptied himself to the point of his re-glorification. Not rocket science there Reniaa
but my point still stands it was God that Made Jesus so acting as God to his subordinate.
I acknowledge subordination. Perfect submission...operation as one spiritual flesh. There can only be one head....and one perfectly submissive agent. This is the operation of the Trinity.
Where did Jesus rebuke him Reniaa? That word is no where is this text. He simply asked a question as he always asked questions to put people into a position of having to think and commit. He emphasized God alone is good but in now way excluded himself from that class. He said nothing more than his question. If he made a comment stating that he himself is not good or that he himself is just a man then you would have a point. You are simply reading into Jesus words what you already believe.
its clear jesus is pointing out something he thinks the man has said wrong therefore rebuking by correcting but and this is for others who have remarked on the 'Good' here jesus is not saying of himself that he isn't good just that the proper respect is to give that sort of praise to God, so while many in the bible are called Good only God is the originator of this Goodness, basically jesus is just being his usual modest self and assigning what is properly given to his father.
Jesus simply asked the man why he called him good. He didn't tell the man he wasn't good- but he made the man commit to one choice or the other- Jesus was simply a man or was God in the flesh.
I know many will want to side with isaac in this interpretation but thats leaves you with a choice...choose a arrogant jesus that in the middle of a random conversation wants to make sure someone knows he is God or a modest jesus who again as in all other places assigns all things to his father?
You said: you talk on my two witness text saying they are equal but isn't that contradictory after just looking at a scripture were jesus says "the father is greater than I"
No, it is not contradictory. I just showed you from Heb discussed above that 'greater' refers to position whereas 'better' refers to nature. George Bush is greater than you and I due to his position. he certainly is not better- as we are of the same nature.
Well I've looked up all the occurances of greater in the bible and i'm sorry but your interpretation is too narrow and the context would lend itself to the greater meaning simply that God is greater,
and a verse i use to show this misinterpretation is a famous one for trinitarians because it encompasses another argument that comes up
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My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [d] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."so here in saying the father is greater than all it clearly shows greater isn't a position but a declaration of god he is greater than all including jesus. but then in the same scriptures we have the oft taken out of context 'I and my father are one' given the context were jesus has just said the father is greater than all why would he say they are one as in equal as some would believe? if you look at the full purpose it clearly shows oneness in purpose not position. and to back this up look at other times this oneness is used....
Reniaa...greater...postion...authority. Here jesus is clearly showing that the Father is the Supreme authority. Nothing here is of nature.
isaac you then give me a mix of examples about people being one flesh etc but I wasn't sure why you went there because thats more my point than yours, that we all can be one and that has nothing to do with deity because we remain separate and of ourselves. You know one repeated theme as well is that all jesus has, has been given by God, the authority was given by God and this is refers to before jesus became a man and after his death, Jesus in accepting authority like a wife does in the headship scriptures is showing us that God is always his head therefore while Jesus is the IMAGE of God he isn't God, an image is never the original!
Reniaa, The point I was trying to make (I think..I have sort of lost track after 10 pages lol) is that the oneness...or comments such as "Jesus is God" do not mean that Jesus is the same person as the Father. They are 2 distinct persons. The oneness is in their operation as one spiritual flesh...one God. A family unit I beleive is what I pointed out. A husband and wife are one flesh...2 distinct persons of the same nature whose operation is as one flesh. Human analogies always break down to a point when trying to paply them to God. Jesus was given the authority by the Father - YES! He is of the same nature as the Father- YES! He is subbordinate to his head, the Father- YES! He perfectly carries out the will of his Father- YES! Together they operate as one unit- YES! The trinity- (let's not talk of the Holy Spirit at this point- let's keep it simple rather than muddy the waters).
Of the above 5 sentence I just stated that end in "Yes!"- which do you beleive and which do you not beleive. I am trying to find exactly where the common ground is and where we deviate from each other.
Now my words are not to lessen Jesus because he is wonderful he has saved us there is none above him accept God Jehovah, so in my book jesus is marvelous too he just isn't God, king yes, ruler yes mediator yes (why would God mediate himself or even need a mediator if he was Jesus?)
Reniaa
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Looking for a scripture in the N/T
by jookbeard inthere is a scripture somewhere where god says " he has prepared a place in heaven for the faithful patriarchs of old abraham,isaac,jacob etc, what scripture is it and how do dubs explain it?
i never encountered it in any debating when i was a dub, i only used to remind my ex wife of it and she would just ignore me, surely this scripture is one of the most overwhelming counter doctrine pieces of text to disprove the little flock/great crowd in heaven anomaly.
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isaacaustin
no success...I caught my dad off guard and he said it must mean something else. My wife tired to say it is earthly...she didn't know what the 1965 WT that gave the symbolizing explanation gave.
It was a key verse in helping another friend of mine begin to doubt his way out of the org.
Use of this with Luke is a great way to start I would think.
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Looking for a scripture in the N/T
by jookbeard inthere is a scripture somewhere where god says " he has prepared a place in heaven for the faithful patriarchs of old abraham,isaac,jacob etc, what scripture is it and how do dubs explain it?
i never encountered it in any debating when i was a dub, i only used to remind my ex wife of it and she would just ignore me, surely this scripture is one of the most overwhelming counter doctrine pieces of text to disprove the little flock/great crowd in heaven anomaly.
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isaacaustin
They explain it this way:
the characters are symbolic- Abr is the great Father Jehovah...sacrificing his son Isaac- Jesus...and Jacob symbolizes the Christian cong- 144,000. The WT speaks of this solely as an heavenly setting.
However...the cross ref is Luke 13;28:
"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out
In this passage the WT does not symbolize and speaks of this as an earthly setting.