Posts by donny

16

Thinking it through and not liking the result.

by donny in

today at work a co-worker of mine and i were having lunch at a nearby establishment.

he is what you would call a c&e christian in that he basically attends church only for the christmas and easter services, though he definitely says he believes in god.. he said that he just recently caught an episode of a crime/forensic show that featured a man from new jersey named john list who was also known locally as the "bogeyman of westfield.

" list became infamous for murdering his entire family consisting of his wife, three children and his mother on november 9, 1971. see below link for more data.. on the tv show the narrator commented there were a few reasons why he did it.

donny

You all are correct. There is no making sense out of senselessness.

6

Do you have a right to your private thoughts?

by Terry in

jw
friends

define: privacy.

the state or condition of being free from being observed or disturbed by other people.. .

if your private thoughts were made public--and you knew they would be made public--.

donny

Wow Terry, you gave me a lot to think about there. You have a great mind.

29

Are you interested in dropping your southern accent?

by jam in

well you are in luck, oak ridge national laboratory in.

tn offered a class for their 4000 employees from 90. different countries, get this,a class that teaches how to.

minimice a southern accent.

donny

Well that was pert near the most intristin thang I has heards in a while.

16

Thinking it through and not liking the result.

by donny in

today at work a co-worker of mine and i were having lunch at a nearby establishment.

he is what you would call a c&e christian in that he basically attends church only for the christmas and easter services, though he definitely says he believes in god.. he said that he just recently caught an episode of a crime/forensic show that featured a man from new jersey named john list who was also known locally as the "bogeyman of westfield.

" list became infamous for murdering his entire family consisting of his wife, three children and his mother on november 9, 1971. see below link for more data.. on the tv show the narrator commented there were a few reasons why he did it.

donny

I think there may be hope for this person. He is quite a smart fellow and he was clearly disturbed by where this concept of thinking finally ended up. He seems to be fascinated with the fact that I was once a JW and am now a non-believer in any of it. He commented "Most folks I have known got more religious as they got older but you went the other way."

16

Thinking it through and not liking the result.

by donny in

today at work a co-worker of mine and i were having lunch at a nearby establishment.

he is what you would call a c&e christian in that he basically attends church only for the christmas and easter services, though he definitely says he believes in god.. he said that he just recently caught an episode of a crime/forensic show that featured a man from new jersey named john list who was also known locally as the "bogeyman of westfield.

" list became infamous for murdering his entire family consisting of his wife, three children and his mother on november 9, 1971. see below link for more data.. on the tv show the narrator commented there were a few reasons why he did it.

donny

Today at work a co-worker of mine and I were having lunch at a nearby establishment. He is what you would call a C&E Christian in that he basically attends church only for the Christmas and Easter services, though he definitely says he believes in God.

He said that he just recently caught an episode of a crime/forensic show that featured a man from New Jersey named John List who was also known locally as the "Bogeyman of Westfield." List became infamous for murdering his entire family consisting of his wife, three children and his mother on November 9, 1971. See below link for more data.

On the TV show the narrator commented there were a few reasons why he did it. He was unhappy with the way his life was heading, he was broke and recently unemployed, but what caught my coworkers attention was the reason he killed his children.

As a "devout" believer he reasoned that his children were still under the age of accountability and if he killed them they would be guaranteed a place in heaven. However if they continued gravitating toward the unholy lifestyle he thought they were heading to, then a trip to hell was a very likely possibility.

I reminded him that this was also the reasoning used by a deranged Andrea Yates when she drowned her five children in Texas on June 21, 2000. He said "oh yeah" and added her to his flurry of condemnations. He said he could not understand how anyone could get that screwed up in their thinking.

I agreed with him that it was a very evil thing they had done to their kids and as an unbeliever I faulted religion as the principal reason in those cases.

He said religion was not at fault here as far as he could surmise so I asked him this question. "Do you think the kids are in heaven?"

"Of course they are" he replied and then added "It wasn't the kids fault the parents were fucked up in the head!"

The conversation went on as follows.

Myself: "I agree that's it jacked up, but didn't they get the result they were shooting for?" (no pun intended)

Coworker: "What do you mean?"

Myself: "The kids received a guaranteed entrance into eternal life in heaven."

Coworker: "Yeah they did, but they should not have killed them to get that guarantee."

Myself: "I agree wholeheartedly. But if you accept the common belief that young ones who die before the age of accountability, whatever that is, then maybe the parents did them a favor."

Coworker: "That's fucked up thinking!"

Myself: "Again I agree, but look at it from their standpoint. They 'loved' their kids so much that they did not want to entertain the possibility that they could end up in the lake of fire for eternity so they played the 'get into heaven free' card by killing them before they got involved in anything that would keep them from attaining that prize."

Coworker: "I see what you are saying but that is totally fucked up! The poor kids didn't get a chance to enjoy like on earth."

Myself: "True, but according to them all of them are living forever in paradise now, whereas that may not have been the case if they had been allowed to make their own decisions as adults."

Coworker: "I don't know what to say to that. I understand your point but it is still so damned wrong. What is also messed up is he said the reason he didn't kill himself is because suicide would have barred him from heaven, but he could get forgiveness for killing his family."

Myself: "But that is what the majority of Christians believe. What they do not understand is they are essentially saying that they can alter "Gods plan" so that it suits themselves. I know you would not have ever considered doing such a hideous deed, but you can somewhat understand that convoluted thinking can't you?"

Coworker: "I suppose a little bit but I still find it gut-wrenching and fucked up to the max!"

Myself: "So do I, but there are several situations like that regarding religious beliefs where if you really think it all the way through to its conclusion, the results are horrifying."

Coworker: "Dammit Ray I am going to have to give this some deep thought and maybe ask my cousin who is a pastor of a church."

Myself: "I would be very interested in his viewpoint on this matter."

Coworker: "I can't parse this out at the moment so that it makes sense. On one hand you love your kids more than anything but if you saw one headed on the highway to hell, I could see a bit how a fucked up person could come to the conclusion that killing them now would be better for them in the long run."

Myself: "So what is worse? Killing them now so they can live forever or let them live out their life and let them spin the wheel of life knowing they may win an all expensed paid trip to hell where they will be tormented forever and forever."

Coworker: "Let's drop the subject for now as it is really jacking with my mind."

Myself: "Sure. Are your ready for football season now?"

I later sent him a link to Dogma Debate Radio with David Smalley and asked him to check out a few of the podcasts and let me know what he thinks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_List

40

Athiests: Do you ever wonder... what if?

by toweragent in

jw
friends

i'll start by saying, i'm a ministerial servant who is trapped in the religion.

my wife is hardcore...but i've slowly been getting her to lighten up, so i'll take it!

all my friends and family are jw's, and i am employed by a jw (who is actually a great boss).

donny

I too was a ministerial servant when I began to fade from the organization. My atheism came many years later. You should not rush yourself in whatever change process you find yourself in. I can say that I am much happier now than when I was part of the borg. I cannot say for certain that there is nothing out there beyond the physical world, but until evidence is presented that proves it, I will be an atheist (without a god).

Donny

42

Is the Bible just as fake as the JW's

by BackSlider in

jw
friends

it seems that the more i research, the more i find that it's all just a big scam.

is there any evidence that even the bible isn't just another big religion/government scam?

would we listen to putin or obama if they told us they have verified new holy writings?

donny

The Bible is simply the stories and musings of some bronze-aged middle easterners who were trying to maintain some control over a band of desert dwellers and trying to make a nation out of them. It has no more and no less relevance than ancient Chinese or Egyptian stories.

9

God's dates, not ours

by donny in

as a former jehovah's witness, i now sit back and marvel how well i had been suckered into this religion.

and to think that their own worst critic was their own publications.. in 1968 some 43 years had lapsed since their last firm prediction on when armageddon would occur.

they had predicted 1925 would see an end to the worlds suffering and a new world for the true believers, i.e.

donny

I love the quote where they said they " have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect."

What a load of humus! In the 8/15/68 Watchtower they were sending a statement to those who were quoting Jesus' words that no one knew the day or the hour.

One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man's existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that "concerning that day and hour nobody knows , neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the "day and hour"!

And in the same magazine they tried to make the case that their timing may be off, but only slightly.

"Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years. " Watchtower 1968 Aug 15 p.499

So even if October 1975 passed and nothing happened, surely it would occur sometime in 1976. But by the summer of 76, they began releasing statements that the rand and file misread what the Society had been saying and took the year 1975 and ran away with it.

9

God's dates, not ours

by donny in

as a former jehovah's witness, i now sit back and marvel how well i had been suckered into this religion.

and to think that their own worst critic was their own publications.. in 1968 some 43 years had lapsed since their last firm prediction on when armageddon would occur.

they had predicted 1925 would see an end to the worlds suffering and a new world for the true believers, i.e.

donny

As a former Jehovah's Witness, I now sit back and marvel how well I had been suckered into this religion. And to think that their own worst critic was their own publications.

In 1968 some 43 years had lapsed since their last firm prediction on when Armageddon would occur. They had predicted 1925 would see an end to the worlds suffering and a new world for the true believers, i.e. followers of Judge Rutherford, the Watchtower Society's second president.

Just a few years earlier Rutherford was on his nationwide circuit giving his stirring talk "Millions Now Living Will Never Die." Unlike today where most non-JW's could not name anyone on the current Governing Body or who the president of the Society is, Joseph "Judge" Rutherford was fairly well known in Christian circles of the day.

Rutherford was so adamant that 1925 would usher in the New Order he had this to say in reply to those who questioned it.

"Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith then Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." Watch Tower 1923 Apr 1 p.106.

That is a pretty bold statement. He says his word is more sound than God supposedly talking directly to Noah.

The following year he said that 1925 even eclipsed the pivotal 1914.

"The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914;…" Watchtower 1924 Jul 15 p.211

It was not a matter of opinion...oh no!. It was definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures. It was a fact and no truly consecrated child of God would question it.

A few years after 1925 passed, it became less and less "clearly marked" until it was not even highlighted. Eventually they would try to apply some "White-Out" to that definite date.

43 years go by and the growth in the organization has been limp at best in the ten years leading up to 1967. They need something to charge up the faithful and there is no better way to do that than to give a new date for "that day." And that date would be 1975.

Now the fact that there have been "those" others who have predicted dates and nothing came of them. Let's see what they had to say about "those" types.

"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end to the world," even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The "end" did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them." Awake! 1968 Oct 8 p.23

So by their own words they were condemning their prior declarations and stating that Jehovah was not using them, but JW's of the day saw "those" as other folks, now-JW's, who were proclaiming those despicable statements.

What was notable about this period is that the Society was much more loose in what was going to occur in 1975 in speech than what they had to say in print.

Charles Sunutko, a District Overseer in the Sheboygan, Wisconisin area had this to say in the talk "Serving with Everlasting Life in View" that was delivered at the 1967 District Convention.

"Well now, as Jehovah's Witnesses, as runners, even though some of us have become a little weary, it almost seems as though Jehovah has provided meat in due season. Because he's held up before all of us, a new goal. A new year. Something to reach out for and it just seems it has given all of us so much more energy and power in this final burst of speed to the finish line. And that's the year 1975. Well, we don't have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower. And don't wait 'till 1975. The door is going to be shut before then. As one brother put it, "Stay alive to Seventy-Five""

To hear this talk check out the wonderful site "JWFacts.com" which contains much more about JW's and their many false prophecies.

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1975.php

They also had this to say this about that pivotal year.

"Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before 6,000 years of man's existence on earth is completed. Do you remember what we learned at the assemblies last summer? The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those that are destroyed then." Kingdom Ministry 1968 Mar p.4

Of course 1975 came and went and nothing happened. Nada, Zilch, Zero.

So what do you do? Well you do the most logical thing, blame the rank and file Witnesses.

The 07/15/76 Watchtower, page 441, had this to say about those who looked to 1975 as a special year.

"But it is not advisable for us to set our sights on a certain date, neglecting everyday things we would ordinarily care for as Christians, such as things that we and our families really need. We may be forgetting that, when the “day” comes, it will not change the principle that Christians must at all times take care of all their responsibilities. If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises."

This elicited even more anger from the rank and file because they knew that they had not dreamed this up on their own, this had come from those appointed to hand out "meat in due season."

Finally in 1980 they admitted that the ones running the organization were culpable in feeding the frenzy about 1975.

"With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting-in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man's existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. ... Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility ." Watchtower 1980 Mar 15 p.17

Most of today's JW's are either unaware of this example of their "Faithful and Discreet Slave" disseminating this outright false prophecy or they hind behind statement like the following;

"Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions 'in the name of Jehovah.' Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'" Awake! 1993 Mar 22 p.4

This same organization earlier had this to say about the dates put forth in their publications.

"We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we could. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours." Zion's Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p.226

Well I guess we can surmise from these statements that Jehovah is like an old man who recalls old times but mixes up the time period and when called on it simple declares "You know me, I am terrible with dates."

For those looking for a great podcast that talks about JW's, Mormons or just any old religion, check out DogmaDebate.com with David Smalley.

14

Jehovah's Witnesses and "Reasoning."

by donny in

back in the mid 1980's the ones in charge of "giving food at the proper time" actually released a book called "reasoning from the scriptures.

" although this publication supposedly used reasoning as a tool to show the truth if the truth, in reality it just served the purpose of spoon feeding the publishers as they ventured out into field service.. it wasn't until i actually used reasoning as a tool that i was able to break the shackles of the watchtower bible and tract society.. for me it was the issue of jesus selecting the watchtower society as the one and only true religion in the spring of 1919.. as i began perusing though the society's older publications, i discovered that their teaching of jesus returning in 1914 was not the firm rock of a teaching that they had long claimed.

the 01/15/1993 watchtower had this to say on page 5.. "the watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honest hearted students of bible prophecy that jesus presence in heavenly kingdom power began in 1914. events since that year testify to jesus invisible presence.".

donny

Thanks you Phizzy. I was able to help my two daughters see the Society for what it is, but my son is still in its grip. Hopefully he will reason his way out one day.