the society have taught for many years that only 144,000 individuals will have embraced true worship from the time when jesus (and presumably john the baptist six months before him) began his ministry in about 30 c.e.
when the great crowd began to be drawn in.. however, even a casual reading of the book of acts shows the phenomenal growth of christianity during the time of the apostles.
in colossians ch1 paul even makes the comment that the good news had at that point been preached to all creation that was under heaven.. in 64 c.e, there were so many christians in rome already that nero felt he could easily blame them for the destructive fire which had swept through the city.
I've asked these questions of many Witnesses and I usually get a "I see your point" answer.
"If the number 144,000 is a literal number in Revelation chapter 7--then is the number 12,000 from each of the "tribes" also literal? Are there literally 12 groups of 12,000 which comprise the 144,000? Or are the numbers 12 and 12,000 figurative? And if they are figurative--wouldn't consistency require that the number 144,000 also be figurative?"
CatholicGuy
*** rbi8 ephesians 4:1-3 ***.
4 i, therefore, the prisoner in [the] lord, entreat you to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, 2 with complete lowliness of mind and mildness, with long-suffering, putting up with one another in love, 3 earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace.
jehovahs witnesses are a united people.
Don't stop with verse 3. The next verse says:
"One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called;"
There is only "one hope" for Christians--to be with Christ. (BTW, Christians are not saved by works but by God's grace.)
CatholicGuy
A couple of favorite webpages:
well, our resident sooth-sayer yk has once again missed the mark, as october ends and the world spins on.
but then again, as was the case in 1914, the world may have come crashing down but i failed to notice.
Well, there are a few possible reasons for this "delay." ;)
Remember, that the Apostles lived according to the Julian Calendar. That means that October is with us for about another two weeks.
Or, it is possible there is an inter-calculary month (basically a "leap month") due in the Hebrew calendar which would stretch things quite nicely.
The most likely explanation is that at the time midnight November 1, 2001 the Yankees were poised to dash the hopes of the Arizona Diamondbacks in the World Series and that these prophecies applied to these two teams. (We had the time right but we were expecting the wrong things.)
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
more specifically, could you tell me your thoughts on verses such as:.
matthew 24:14. and could anyone give me some factual stats on the fact that jw's dont actually preach worldwide, or at least aren't recognized worldwide???.
and yes, i do need to be reassured!
Well, put, Lionel.
And for that next question: "but who else uses Jehovah's name?" just get out the _Comprehensive Concordance of the NWT_ and look up the name "Jehovah" in the NT. Even if we use the NWT as our accepted text does Jesus himself emphasize the name "Jehovah" in his everyday speech? From what I can see Jesus only utters the name "Jehovah" in the NWT 3 times apart from Old Testament quotations (and there is absolutely no NT Greek manuscript evidence for the name "Jehovah" in those quotations anyway). Instead, Jesus uses "Father" and "God" to refer to God. What is really telling is to compare the usage of "Jesus" in the _Comprehensive Concordance of the NWT_. The NWT "restores" (with no NT Greek manuscript support) the name "Jehovah" 237 times to the NT. How many times does the name "Jesus" appear in the NT of the NWT? Over 900 times!! Which name is emphasized in the NT of the NWT?
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
more specifically, could you tell me your thoughts on verses such as:.
matthew 24:14. and could anyone give me some factual stats on the fact that jw's dont actually preach worldwide, or at least aren't recognized worldwide???.
and yes, i do need to be reassured!
And why would Matthew 24:14 apply to a very small religious body?
How many millions of Bibles have been distributed by various Bible Societies? Besides, the "good news" to be preached is that of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor. chapter 15) and not that of some invisible second coming of Christ in 1914 (which the JWs admit they didn't understand until way after the fact).
Now, who is more known for preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as their main message? Jehovah's Witnesses or Christians?
CatholicGuy
i voluntarily disassociated from the jws in 1980. i was actively involved in ministry to jws and ex-jws for the next 10 years.
the past 10 years or so i've moved on with my life and lost touch with much of what was happening with the watch tower society and ex-witnesses.
of course, growing up in the witnesses leaves its imprint on you.
The Bethelites from Oregon I remember:
Duane, Joel and Leon Hamberg
Dan Struck
Doug Hardy
John Wick
Haven't talked with any of these in over 20 years. Don't know if they're still in or even alive.
CatholicGuy
we've seen internet copies of paul gillies letter and the translation of the letter sent to beroea.
does anyone have a hard copy of a letter from the society in english that can be scanned in?
it would seem that someone at the un could comment on the society's characterization that they never understood their membership as a ngo to be anything more than allowance to use the un library.
I'm not sure if the leadership's "tissue of lies" will work out so well for them. I think if we can get a hard copy letter from the Society to contrast with the letter from the UN we can go back and get further comment from someone at the UN. Basically, the Society's position is that the NGO/DPI office is lying: their involvement with the NGO/DPI was only a sign-up for permission to use the UN library. I think we need a hard copy letter to approach the NGO/DPI office. If they won't comment is there another section of the UN (higher up?) which could do an internal investigation and tell us who is telling the truth: the Watch Tower Society or the DPI office? An internal investigation could reveal: 1)The existence (or non-existence) of applications signed by Watch Tower officials for association as a NGO; 2)whether or not _Awake!_ articles regarding the UN were submitted by the Watch Tower Society to the Resource Library and what they contained; 3)other possible correspondence between UN officials and the Watch Tower Society.
CatholicGuy
one of "judge" rutherford's last wishes was to be buried at his beloved "beth-sarim," the house that was built in san diego to house the "princes" that would rule the earth after armageddon.
the local authorities would not permit his burial there and the jws started quite a campaign in _consolation_ (later _awake!_) to have his wishes fulfilled.
witnesses even circulated petitions door to door (a lot of the "kingdom preaching" hours in 1942 was time spent circulating petitions to submit to authorities to allow the judge's burial at beth-sarim.
In a real sense Fredhall is right on this. What's the big deal about where JFR is buried? Back in 1942 the WTS was determined to fulfill Rutherford's wishes so much so that JWs distributed petitions to give to San Diego officials to permit his burial at Beth-Sarim. In retrospect, it was one dumb mistake. Of course, whether or not the Society told the truth when they said he was buried in New York instead of California doesn't matter to many JWs. They'll accept anything the Society says without complaint.
Does anyone know whatever happened to the cemetery that was at the Staten Island truck farm where JFR is supposed to be buried? Does the Society still own that? Does the cemetery still exist?
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
we've seen internet copies of paul gillies letter and the translation of the letter sent to beroea.
does anyone have a hard copy of a letter from the society in english that can be scanned in?
it would seem that someone at the un could comment on the society's characterization that they never understood their membership as a ngo to be anything more than allowance to use the un library.
We've seen internet copies of Paul Gillies letter and the translation of the letter sent to Beroea. Does anyone have a hard copy of a letter from the Society in English that can be scanned in?
It would seem that someone at the UN could comment on the Society's characterization that they never understood their membership as a NGO to be anything more than allowance to use the UN library. Yes, I'm sure the people at the NGO/DPI office are tired of some of the phone calls. Perhaps they feel somehow we would be accusing them of something unethical in allowing the WTS on board? We need somehow to get a comment from some department of the UN showing that they did apply for this status and that the UN does not just give special status to NGO's so that they can have library priviledges and not also agree to "support the UN Charter." Is there a section of the UN that could investigate who is telling the truth--the DPI office or the WT Society?
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
one of "judge" rutherford's last wishes was to be buried at his beloved "beth-sarim," the house that was built in san diego to house the "princes" that would rule the earth after armageddon.
the local authorities would not permit his burial there and the jws started quite a campaign in _consolation_ (later _awake!_) to have his wishes fulfilled.
witnesses even circulated petitions door to door (a lot of the "kingdom preaching" hours in 1942 was time spent circulating petitions to submit to authorities to allow the judge's burial at beth-sarim.
One of "Judge" Rutherford's last wishes was to be buried at his beloved "Beth-Sarim," the house that was built in San Diego to house the "princes" that would rule the earth after Armageddon. The local authorities would not permit his burial there and the JWs started quite a campaign in _Consolation_ (later _Awake!_) to have his wishes fulfilled. Witnesses even circulated petitions door to door (a lot of the "Kingdom preaching" hours in 1942 was time spent circulating petitions to submit to authorities to allow the Judge's burial at Beth-Sarim. The local authorities would not budge. Eventually, the Society gave up (seems like a couple of months were involved here--perhaps someone has access to the details in the older publications and could post it) and claims the "Judge" was privately buried back in New York (I believe at the property the Society had on Staten Island where WBBR studios were at).
The rumor that the Judge's last wish was secretly fulfilled has not gone away. I remember talking with a friend who had visited Brooklyn back in the mid-80's and in someone's room at Bethel had met Fred Franz. In the course of the conversation my friend asked him: "Where's Judge Rutherford buried?" The reply was a quick: "Beth-Sarim." If this is true one has to ask: "Who's buried in Rutherford's grave?" (Certainly, not Ulysses S. Grant!) Is it empty? Perhaps if ex-JWs ever do purchase the property where Beth-Sarim is a shrine should be erected to mark the spot where he is buried? Not a pyramid, however...
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
