a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
Yadirf,
The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth. I mentioned in my posts that there is a uniting of heaven and earth then. So it's both heaven and earth--heaven on earth, if you will.
I've cited proof for my assertion that traditional Christianity does not dispense with the earth. Do you have sources to the contrary?
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
Just found this link. It's from the evangelical Protestant Radio Bible Class website. It basically says the same thing about the new heaven and new earth:
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/sb248/page13.html
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
Really, isn’t the very opposite of what you’ve said the truth of the matter? Rather than the other way around, the traditional view of Christendom is indeed the dispensing of the “earth” since they rarely express any hope other than that of going home to "heaven”.
That is exactly why I quoted and linked the material from the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_. As it says there, we don't know exactly how this will happen but it is our hope. Go back and read the link to see that I'm not just spouting out my own thoughts on this but this is the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Can't get more traditional than that! <g>
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
Thanks for providing the information you posted. But I don’t find it all that clear. I like information, but I hate having to dig through what a person quotes someone else as having said, trying to decipher what you YOURSELF believe.
I understand. I was trying to document that the traditional Christian understanding does not "dispense with the earth."
Are you claiming that our present earth will LITERALLY be replaced by an entirely separate "new earth"? Can you CLEARLY answer that question? In your opinion: Is our present earth one day going to no longer figure into things? Is it due to be eliminated? Destroyed? Do you think that there will be a “new earth” as the result of mankind having been rehabilitated? What say you, exactly?We don't have detailed answers. We don't know exactly how this will happen. The present heaven and earth will be transformed. How much of a continuity between the old heavens and old earth and the new heavens and the new earth there will be we don't know. It will be more than just a rehabilitation of mankind. Scripture indicates creation itself will be renewed.
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
Christendom believes that ALL the "saved" will go to Heaven to forever live with God. This is an error of course because her scenario eventually dispenses with the earth.
The traditional Christian undestanding is that there will be a new heavens and a new earth. For example, see the relevant section in the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#VI
Notice these sections (1046-1050. The paragraphs in quotes are from authoritative Church documents or Scripture:
1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:
"For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay.... We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies."
1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.
1048 "We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men."
1049 "Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is here that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come. That is why, although we must be careful to distinguish earthly progress clearly from the increase of the kingdom of Christ, such progress is of vital concern to the kingdom of God, insofar as it can contribute to the better ordering of human society."
1050 "When we have spread on earth the fruits of our nature and our enterprise . . . according to the command of the Lord and in his Spirit, we will find them once again, cleansed this time from the stain of sin, illuminated and transfigured, when Christ presents to his Father an eternal and universal kingdom." God will then be "all in all" in eternal life:
"True and subsistent life consists in this: the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit, pouring out his heavenly gifts on all things without exception. Thanks to his mercy, we too, men that we are, have received the inalienable promise of eternal life."
****************
For those who hold that the number 144,000 is literal:
If the number 144,000 is literal are the numbers 12 and 12,000 literal also? Are there literally 12 groups of 12,000 comprising the 144,000? Also, are there literally 12 gates in the New Jerusalem? Are the measurements 12,000 and 144 to be taken literally also? (From Rev. chapter 21) Doesn't consistency require we take the numbers all as literal or all as symbolic?
Revelation chapters 21 and 22 describe the final state when the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven to earth. This is a uniting of heaven and earth in the new heavens and the new earth. The gates of the City are open for all. Notice Rev. 22:14-15:
"Happy are those who wash their robes clean! [Remember this is what the "great multitude" do--Rev. 7:14.] They shall be free to eat from the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the perverts, the sorcerers and fornicators, the murderers and idolaters, and all who love and practise deceit."
Two choices: being able to enter the City to eat of the tree of life or to be outside the City with the lost. There are not two hopes for Christians...only "one hope" (Ephesians 4:4).
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
My understanding:
The 144,000 are all the people of God from the Old and New Testaments.
symbolic numbers (12 and 12,000 and 144,000)
144,000 = (12 x 12) x (10 x 10 x 10) or
(12 tribes = OT peoples) x (12 apostles = NT Church) x
(10 x 10 x 10 = completeness to the third power)
We see these symbolic numbers again in describing when the New Jerusalem descends to earth: 12 gates, 12,000 furlongs and 144 cubits (see Rev. 21:16-21).
The "great multitude" are heavenly (see Rev. 19:1)
I view the 144,000 as picturing the symbolic total of God's people *on earth*. Notice that John only "hears" the number of the 144,000. (Rev 7:4) He doesn't describe "seeing" them. After he hears their number he `looked and beheld' the great multitude before the throne and the Lamb. (Rev 7:9) The great multitude are the same group (all of God's people) but viewed after the "great tribulation." The 144,000 is the Church militant. The "great multitude" is the Church triumphant.
Compare the same literary device used to describe:
John hears about the Lion of the tribe of Judah (Rev 5:5)
but he `looked and beheld' the Lamb (Rev 5:6)
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
do you think the un would begin an investigation if enough of us wrote them to ask for it?
(letters would be better than email for this, i think.
) perhaps to the secretariat office or the ambassador from the country you reside in?
Do you think the UN would begin an investigation if enough of us wrote them to ask for it? (Letters would be better than email for this, I think.) Perhaps to the Secretariat Office or the ambassador from the country you reside in? If there was an investigation started perhaps more documentation would be released?
Here's an idea for a sample letter:
Dear xxxxxxxx,
I am writing to ask your help in beginning an investigation of the membership of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as a NGO of the United Nations and its recent disassociation from DPI due to media exposure. The Watchtower Society says its relationship with DPI of the NGO section of the UN was simply to gain access to the UN library facilities. DPI says their affiliation was much more:
"[The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society] applied for association with DPI in 1991 and was granted association in 1992. By accepting association with DPI, the organization agreed to meet criteria for association, including support and respect of the principles or the Charter of the United Nations and commitment and means to conduct effective information programmes with its constituents and to a broader audience about UN activities." (Letter from DPI dated October 11, 2001)
The listing of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as a NGO on the DPI webpage was not known by its membership. It only came to light in the past few months and caused some concerns among current and former members of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Watchtower Society has long demonized the United Nations as one of the Satanic beasts of the book of Revelation in the Bible and is well known for its refusal to get involved in the political process.
The questioning about this led to a couple of articles in the British newspaper _The Guardian_. (I enclose a copy of one of _The Guardian_ articles with this letter.) The first article appeared on October 8, 2001. The day after the first article appeared in _The Guardian_ the Watchtower Society was disassociated as a member of DPI of the NGO section of the UN. The Watchtower's explanation has been published in a form letter. Their explanation is:
"Our purpose for registering with the Department of Public Information as a nongovernmental organization (NGO) in 1991 was to have access to research material available on health, ecological, and social problems at the United Nations library facilities. We had been using the library for many-years prior to 1991, but in that year it became necessary to register as an NGO to have continued access. Registration papers filed with the United Nations that we have on file contain no statements that conflict with our Christian beliefs. Moreover, NGOs are informed by the United Nations that "association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system, nor does it entitle associated organizations or their staff to any kind of privileges, immunities or special status." Still, the Criteria for Association of NGOs-at least in their latest version-contain language that we cannot subscribe to. When we realized this, we immediately withdrew our registration. We are grateful that this matter was brought to our attention. We can add that at the time of the registration there was not even the need to sign the registration form which shows how low the significance of the registration was perceived."
This issue has caused quite a bit of controversy among current and former members of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Some feel the involvement of the Watchtower Society as a NGO of the UN was much more than just library access. Involvement at the UN would have aided them in their human rights and religious freedom concerns (they currently are fighting such cases in France and Russia, for example). For most people that would be a laudable goal but involvement in the political process would be a major theological contradiction for the Witnesses. The Watchtower Society has been severely critical of the involvement of other religions with the UN as "spiritual harlotry." The Watchtower Society will not answer any further questions regarding its 10 year NGO affiliation. DPI will only state that the Watchtower Society is no longer accredited with DPI.
These are some questions regarding the Watchtower Society's affiliation as a member of the DPI section of the UN:
1) Is it required to register as a NGO to use the library facilities at the UN?
2) Is it possible that there was some misunderstanding about the Watchtower Society's status as a NGO and that their involvement was simply to get UN library privileges? If so, was this a failure on the part of DPI in accrediting the Watchtower Society as a NGO? Or, is there evidence of any fraud in the application process by the Watchtower Society?
3) Did the original NGO application form that the Watchtower Society filled out in 1991 indicate that membership involved support for the Charter for the UN and responsibility to promote the UN in its literature? Is it true they did not sign the application form?
4) Did the Watchtower Society fill out re-certifications over the years as is usually required? Did these also indicate support for the Charter of the UN and an acknowledgment to disseminate information about the UN? Or, was the Watchtower Society exempted from the re-certification process?
5) In the past 10 years the Watchtower Society has printed several articles in their newsmagazine Awake! which appear to be in fulfillment of their obligation to "conduct effective information programmes about UN activities." Were these articles submitted by the Watchtower Society as part of its re-certification or submitted to the DPI archives?
To current and former members of the Jehovah's Witnesses this has taken on the proportions of a major scandal. For them this would be comparable to Catholics discovering that the Vatican was privately supporting Planned Parenthood and abortion rights. Sample webpages that present these issues are:
http://www.thetruthhurts.freeservers.com/unitednations.htm
http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69/
http://www.geocities.com/watchtowersociety/beast.htm
I realize this has little meaning to non-members of the religion. The relevant issues that would justify an inquiry into this by UN officials are: 1) was there any fraud by the Watchtower Society in the application process? 2) did DPI err in certifying the Watchtower Society either by exempting them from the usual requirements or from the re-certification process? Did the forms the Watchtower Society filled out state the ususal requirements for NGOs--support for the UN Charter, etc? 3) who is telling the truth about the Watchtower Society's involvement as a NGO? DPI says they agreed to support the Charter of the UN and to disseminate info about the UN--the Watchtower Society says they did not and that their involvement was only for research purposes and that they did not even sign the application form.
Sincerely,
xxxxxxx
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
a rather interesting article on the issue of "soul" and "eternal punishment" by a former bethelite/gilead graduate.
you will need adobe acrobat reader to read the file.. http://home.att.net/~kguin/mt1028_soul.pdf.
not my webpage but a favorite:.
John,
You have brought up many subjects (canon of Scripture, authenticity of text, translation and interpretation of terms, reconciling a loving God with punishment, etc., etc.) For time reasons I will only deal with one. First, let me say that I believe when Jesus spoke of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in the afterlife I believe he had more in mind than annihiliationism. Most JWs I've met think that the traditional concept of hell means devils and pitchforks and eternal worms and literal fire, etc. That is not true. Some descriptions are from popular myth. The ones from Scripture are to be understood metaphorically.
The Eastern Church has developed a theology that can be termed the "river of fire." Who receives this "fire"? Everyone. Remember, Scripture refers to God as a "consuming fire." It also refers to our works being tested by fire. This link gives the essence of this understanding of the "river of fire":
http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Nov98/RiverFire6.htm
We all experience this fire but our reactions to it are different.
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
we heard this author speak at a conference last may.
please note randy watters comments & recomendation for this newly released book.
"injustice will continue until those who are not affected by it are as outraged as those who are.
Ed Gruss' research is usually very good and my guess is this book will be worth obtaining for those interested in JWs and chronological issues.
BTW, Jim Penton was never a Bethelite.
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
a rather interesting article on the issue of "soul" and "eternal punishment" by a former bethelite/gilead graduate.
you will need adobe acrobat reader to read the file.. http://home.att.net/~kguin/mt1028_soul.pdf.
not my webpage but a favorite:.
Ken Guindon graduated from Gilead in the sixties. He had been a Bethelite for 4 years before then.
Jed459 writes:
"So what are we left with if the bible has been corrupted? How can we tell which is the true word of God and which is not?"
I won't take up the challenge here. If Jed can choose which texts to decide are true and which are not there's no point to spend time discussing this. I think, rather, that he has admitted that if one accepts all the Bible as authoritative he has lost the argument.
BTW, I realize that most JWs (and those who still have retained JW thinking on these subjects) react emotionally on this subject. Thoughtful Christian belief on this subject is a far cry from the way it is represented in WT literature. For starters, I recommend the article by Peter Kreeft on the problem of evil:
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0019.html
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
