Posts by Jeffro

7

Society record keeping

by Jeffro in

one month after writing a letter to the society directing that they destroy, or return to me, all records pertaining to me and today i received a phone call from one of the 'elders'.

(i sent this letter a few days after the elders announced that i was "no longer one of jehovah's witnesses" [though on the phone they had told me it would be announced that i had disassociated].

for the record i had explicitly directed 6 months ago that no such announcement be made because i have no status with the organization).. .

Jeffro

How could the records be sent w/o contacting the local elders, who have the records?

I sent a separate letter to the local elders for records that were held locally.

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

My calculator must be broken... won't give me 607 no matter how many times I punch it in. Keeps me giving me 609... Hey... isn't that when all the historians say Babylonian destroyed Assyria's capital, Harran and became world power?? What a co-incidence!! (No, I really didn't use a calculator.)

According to Isaiah's Prophecy volume 1 page 234, when "Tyre must be forgotten seventy years," (Isaiah 23:15) the 70 years "Evidently" does not fully apply to Tyre. Why then should any reference to Jerusalem involving 70 years fully apply the entire 70 years to Jerusalem? The Isaiah's Prophecy book makes it clear that 1) the '70 years' of Jeremiah 25 indeed refers to a lot of nations (as is quite evident just by reading the bible anyway) and 2) the entirety of a 70-year period need not be fully applied to any one nation even when the nation is explicitly referred to with reference to that 70 year period.

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Jeffro

The seventy years referred to by Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah are all linked together by direct quotation to one period of desolation-exile-servitude to Babylon. This period was a period of domination by the Babylonian World Power and ended with its downfall and a new World Power, Medo-Persia. The land of Judah was according to Scripture or prophecy to be desolate, without and inhabitant, and object of astonishment, it enjoyed a sabbath resting and was cursed place. The period has a precise or datable beginning and end as attested by biblical history and secular history.

Rest assured scholar, you are wrong. Several people have given ample evidence in this thread that you have neither validly disproved, nor for which you have provided an authoritative alternative. Your model causes a rift between Jeremiah and Daniel; mine does not. The 587 date is fully consistent with the bible and co-incidently ratifies biblical history of the Judean kings, completely consistent with contemporary babylonian, egyptian and assyrian history for the entire period of Judean kings. You appear to have ignored information on this that I have posted previously.

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Jeffro

Then why does he refer the "seventy years" to the "devastations of Jerusalem," which haven't come to an end by "the first year of (the legendary) Darius the Mede" (9:1) -- and will be truly terminated neither by the first return from exile (Ezra), nor by the rebuilding of the temple (Zechariah) or the city walls (Nehemiah) over the next century (v. 25)?

It doesn't say that they hadn't ended, it said that Daniel 'by the books, discerned their fulfillment'. This wording certainly allows for the interpretation that Daniel realised the 70 years of Babylon's domination had ended, in keeping with the context of Jeremiah chapter 25 and Daniel chapter 5. The word for 'devastations' (chorbah) does not mean complete depopulation and does not by necessity refer specifically to the exile. However, yes it is definitely fair to say that there is a duality of fulfilment which leads into the discussion of the 70 weeks of years.

Whatever the case, scholar is still way off.

121

i need some skeptic input... dreams that come true

by googlemagoogle in

jw
friends

listen to this: the other day my wife was talking in her sleep and she said "sister xyz died".

i just thought, well she's dreaming.

the next day one of my friends told me "sister xyz died yesterday".

Jeffro

It's to this kind of comment that I direct my reply.
If your post is merely rational argument, then there's surely no need for it.

You'd probably complain about his hair style reducing his rationality, or somesuch.

So which is it? ;) (Seriously, it really doesn't worry me.)

But glasshouses aside...

They aren't really trying to convince anyone, they're just chatting about something that they believe happened to them. But they do get a little sensitive when folks start questioning their personal experience, especially when the inquisitor is psychically-blind.

In all fairness, the thread topic is about "skeptic input". If these phenomena are ever to be proven and the mechanisms behind them determined, it will be because sceptics have continued to ask questions and seek proof. If people just sit back and concede that maybe they did happen without any challenge, they will forever be viewed in the realm of science fiction.

As unfavourable as you may find the approach of some sceptics, it has a crucial role.

'psychically blind' sounds a bit reminiscent of the Watchtower's "spiriturally blind".

7

Society record keeping

by Jeffro in

one month after writing a letter to the society directing that they destroy, or return to me, all records pertaining to me and today i received a phone call from one of the 'elders'.

(i sent this letter a few days after the elders announced that i was "no longer one of jehovah's witnesses" [though on the phone they had told me it would be announced that i had disassociated].

for the record i had explicitly directed 6 months ago that no such announcement be made because i have no status with the organization).. .

Jeffro

I have received an envelope delivered by the elders to my mailbox. (no stamp) They have sent back only recent correspondance that I knew they had. They have not confirmed deletion of all records pertaining to me as was specifically directed. I had also explicitly instructed that they reply directly to me rather than through the elders. It is possible that they may have deleted other records but who knows?

They really do seem to think that they are a law unto themselves.

121

i need some skeptic input... dreams that come true

by googlemagoogle in

jw
friends

listen to this: the other day my wife was talking in her sleep and she said "sister xyz died".

i just thought, well she's dreaming.

the next day one of my friends told me "sister xyz died yesterday".

Jeffro

I would need to be given details of a dream that has not yet been fulfilled, and then later be advised of its fulfilment.

The circumstances of the dream would have to be such that one would not reasonably expect them to predictably happen (eg dreaming that I will go to work on a day that I would ordinarily go to work anyway is too predictable), and the fulfilment of the dream would have to occur without the dreamer (or any other person being told of details of the dream) deliberately manipulating events to aid the fulfilment.

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Jeffro

I meant to point out that Daniel's conception of the 70 years is different from Jeremiah's

It can be interpreted that Daniel's reference to 70 years is not the same as Babylon's 70 years, however it seems more likely that these two accounts do refer to the same period.

Specifically Daniel 9:2 says that Daniel "discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years."

Daniel was familiar with Jeremiah's writings, and therefore would have seen the clear fulfilment of Jeremiah's prophecy regarding the end of the 70 years by the events of Daniel chapter 5. The parallel between Jeremiah 25:12 and the meaning of ME'NE and TE'KEL is strikingly obvious. It is very reasonable therefore that it was specifically from that event that Daniel discerned the end of the 70 years.

But the wrong assumption that "the 70 years" mean the same period everywhere in the Bible is exactly what the WT is building upon.

For a certainty. The Society claims that Zechariah 1:7, 11-15 & 7:1-5 refer to the same 70 year period though that 70 years actually runs from the destruction of Jerusalem (587) to Darius' decree to finish the temple rebuilding in his fourth year (517). (The angel's words at Zec 1:12 make it clear that that 70 years had not yet ended in 519BC. Zec 7:1-5 adds weight to this as Sharezer and Regem-melech were sent to ask the priests if the fasting that commemorated the destruction of the temple and the death of Gedaliah should now end, and the priests confirm that this fasting had continued for 70 years (this was Darius' 4th year, 517BC, 70 years after 587.) To its own detriment, the Society also applies the 70 years of Tyre to the same period. Insight (Volume 2, page 1136) states:

"Since the nations mentioned in the prophecy of Jeremiah were to “serve the king of Babylon seventy years” (Jer 25:8-11), this suggests that both the prophecy of Isaiah and that of Jeremiah related to Nebuchadnezzar’s campaign against Tyre."

(you say Jeremiah does, the WT says 1 Chronicles does)

The difference between me and them is I have a model that makes Jeremiah harmonious with 1 Chronicles and they do not.

As a side point, the "70 weeks of years" should be not confused with the "70 years".

22

Sexual orientation proven genetic

by drwtsn32 in

the evidence is compelling!.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=644275.

sexuality determined by nature or nurture?

Jeffro

Of course there are some that would argue that homosexuality is unnatural because homosexuals cannot procreate.

And the downside? LOL

Actually it would be good if certain heterosexuals couldn't either.

7

Society record keeping

by Jeffro in

one month after writing a letter to the society directing that they destroy, or return to me, all records pertaining to me and today i received a phone call from one of the 'elders'.

(i sent this letter a few days after the elders announced that i was "no longer one of jehovah's witnesses" [though on the phone they had told me it would be announced that i had disassociated].

for the record i had explicitly directed 6 months ago that no such announcement be made because i have no status with the organization).. .

Jeffro

One month after writing a letter to the Society directing that they destroy, or return to me, all records pertaining to me and today I received a phone call from one of the 'elders'. (I sent this letter a few days after the elders announced that I was "no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses" [though on the phone they had told me it would be announced that I had disassociated]. For the record I had explicitly directed 6 months ago that no such announcement be made because I have no status with the organization).

Significantly, I said in my letter to the Society that they were to reply directly to me and not via the local elders. So much for discretion.

Anyway, the 'elder' said that he would drop off what they have sent back to me... I'll confirm whether they have complied or not when I know more...

Anyone else had issues with the Society retaining records without permission?