Posts by Jeffro

53

What is really Babylon the great?

by Halcon in

for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.

Jeffro

You’re not good at this. Maybe just stop.

At least he honestly quoted that I specifically referred to superstitions about magic. But it seems he still can’t separate fantasy from reality.

53

What is really Babylon the great?

by Halcon in

for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.

Jeffro

His selective (and poorly cited) disjointed quotation of some poetry from Isaiah 47 (part of 'Isaiah' starting at chapter 40 that was actually composed towards the end of the exilic period) is meant to bolster his tenuous connection between 'magic' in ancient Babylon with his tedious claims about 'pharmakeia'. But superstitions about 'magic' were commonplace and not in any way unique to Babylon, nor did they originate there. (He already shot himself in the foot before by alluding to the Canaanite superstitions about magic practiced by Manasseh.) Revelation mentions pharmakeia in passing rather than as a way to identify 'Babylon the Great'. It's primary meaning is the administration of drugs or poisons, and its use as a metaphor in the NT period is well attested.

This is getting boring. Magic isn't real. Separate to illusion (sleight of hand etc), belief in 'magic' is rooted in superstition, historically (and in the case of some like Halcon, still) used as a way to control the ignorant through fear.

53

What is really Babylon the great?

by Halcon in

for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.

Jeffro

O...K...

If non sequiturs are your goal, you're nailing this.

53

What is really Babylon the great?

by Halcon in

for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.

Jeffro

Wow 🤦‍♂️

53

What is really Babylon the great?

by Halcon in

for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.

Jeffro

Superstition followed by a non sequitur (or a false equivocation if you incorrectly think 'pharmakeia' means 'worship' or 'spiritual opposition') doesn't actually build a case for your position.

53

What is really Babylon the great?

by Halcon in

for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.

Jeffro

Any idea what Manasseh did?

I've already touched on that. Manasseh practiced a form of Canaanite worship (which included child sacrifice), because the Jews were originally Canaanites. It wasn't Babylonian religion, and the Babylonians didn't practice child sacrifice. But keep digging. 🥱

53

What is really Babylon the great?

by Halcon in

for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.

Jeffro

The other scriptures that you 'want' to refer to are further superstitious attempts to frame what happened due to 'divine punishment', but they are ad hoc rationalisations retroactively presented as 'prophecy'.

Any idea what Manasseh did?

The Israelites were, in reality, originally just another one of the Canaanite tribes, and it is unsurprising that they practiced the same types of religious practices (which weren't Babylonian). Gradually, the Jews diverged into a form of monotheism, elevating their local deity from among the Canaanite pantheon. None of this is actually why Babylon destroyed Jerusalem though.

53

What is really Babylon the great?

by Halcon in

for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.

Jeffro

According to the scriptures (a huge part of the old testament actually), why did God previously destroy Jerusalem?

Jerusalem was destroyed because its king refused to submit to Babylon. Which is what 'the scriptures' say (Jeremiah 27:8-11, though it is re-framed in a religious context), and is consistent with what actually happened.

The other scriptures that you 'want' to refer to are further superstitious attempts to frame what happened due to 'divine punishment', but they are ad hoc rationalisations retroactively presented as 'prophecy'.

53

What is really Babylon the great?

by Halcon in

for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.

Jeffro

Halcon:

Essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc. All things practiced in ancient Babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in Revelation).
Or is this too simple of an explanation?

It is no explanation at all. It is conspicuously vague, and where it is specific, it is factually incorrect.

Babylon was used as a metaphor for Rome because Babylon had previously destroyed Jerusalem, and Rome did something similar. (This also invalidates the separate claim that 'Babylon the Great' was Jerusalem, as Jerusalem had already been destroyed when Revelation was written.)

You attribute far too much significance to the use of the term 'pharmakeia', which Revelation does not give as the primary identifier of 'Babylon the Great', and is properly seen as a metaphor for Rome's influence over its client kingdoms.

Also, although the Babylonians were polytheists, their deities were viewed as more capricious rather than each being definitively 'good' or 'evil', and they didn't practice 'devil worship' (a later concept introduced via Persian Zoroastrianism). And although they (and the early Jews with their 'Urim and Thummim') practiced divination, it wasn't 'witchcraft'.

53

What is really Babylon the great?

by Halcon in

for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.

Jeffro

Imagine the faithful claiming exclusive rights to define faith, while ignoring not only reason but also the contradictory faith of others.