Posts by Jeffro

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Jeffro

I have a feeling that more than one person is writing his posts

You mean there's a team of them and yet they're still consistently wrong and have to resort to insults?

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Jeffro

Your statement that according to Jeremiah 25:placing seventy years of serving Babylon after the calling to account the king of Babylon thus ending the seventy yeras at 539 is blatantly false and misleacing.

"placing seventy years of serving Babylon after the calling to account the king of Babylon" - No I didn't say that at all. I agreed with Jeremiah that it is the calling to account of the King of Babylon that is after the 70 years. Daniel obviously agreed with this otherwise his recording the writing on the wall - ME'NE, ME'NE, TE'KEL, PAR'SIN, the death of Babylon's king, and it's overthrow by the Medo-Persian empire in 539 would be meaningless. I'll have to look up 'misleacing'.

That is simply your interpretation and viloates the plain reading of the text. The text simply indicate that after the fulfillment of seventy years which is described by verse 11 as a period of exile, servitude and desolation, Babylon would commence to receive her judgement which as with Judah would mean desolation as described in the latter part of verse 12.

The "plain reading" of Jeremiah 25:12 is a very simple sequence of events. It is the 'Society hypothesis' that "violates the plain reading". You state that "Babylon would commence to receive her judgement" after the 70 years, though it is obvious that Babylon started to receive such judgement in 539, and Daniel 5:26-31 makes it extraordinarily clear that the overthrow at the time was very specifically the call to account to which Jeremiah referred.

The text bears no reference to events of 539 with the fall of Babylon by Cyrus because such an event is not mentioned in verse 12. All that verse 12 describes is Babylon's eventual fate.

Jeremiah says that "when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon"; ME'NE means "God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and has finished it", TE'KEL means "you have been weighed in the balances and have been found deficient". This was in 539. By striking co-incidence, many scholars agree that Babylon replaced Assyria as world power in 609 at Harran's overthrow. Even if this were not the case, and regardless of whether or not all historians agree, this is where the bible points for the beginning of Babylon's 70 years.

Jeremiah 25:11 describes the serving of Babylon by the Jjewsfor seventy years. Do not you believe that the Jews were deported to Babylon at all if they were then they were exiles.

Jeremiah 25:11 describes many nations serving Babylon, and there is no specific mention of Judah in verses 8-11, though it is included among the long list of nations in verses 17-26. There were numerous deportations of Jews, not just in 587 (your 607). Jeremiah lists exiles in Nebuchadnezzar's 7th, 18th, and 23rd years. Nearly as many people were exiled in the 23rd year as in the 18th (Jeremiah 52:30), therefore the bible indicates that Jerusalem was not in your bizarre desolation-exile-servitude thingy in your 607 anyway. Thanks for bringing that up.

The Bible presents not concocted history but the simple fact that the seventy yeras was of desolation-exile and servitude as well attested scripturally and by Josephus.

In Against Apion Book I, Chapter 21, Josephus states: "Nebuchadnezzar, in the eighteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity for fifty years; but that in the second year of the reign of Cyrus its foundations were laid, and it was finished again in the second year of Darius." Josephus concurs that the land was desolated (not unpopulated) for 70 years, and that the temple was destroyed for 50 years which fits 587 to 537.

It is you and the Jonsson hypothesis that seek to rewrrite Jewish history. Indeed Tyre along with other nations as foretold in Jeremiah 25:11 came under the domination of Babylon but Judah had to serve for a period of seventy years which was not the case for Tyre literally.

On what basis does the 'Society hypothesis' assign the entire 70 years to Judah, and not apply the same rule to Tyre? As has been stated in previous posts, the Hebrew words 'chorbah' and 'shamem' do not require depopulation, and do not mean the same as each other.

At last you agree with me and not with Alan F and Jonsson that the seventy years spoken about in Zechariah were one and the same period.

I have never changed my stance on the 70 years mentioned in Zechariah, and whether you agree is irrelevant.

Yes I agree with you that it is possible that the angel knew that the seventy years were to to a end but it is also the case that the angel knew that the seventy yeras had already past. Both propositions are likely so it is only the context that can settle the matter. In the case of the Zechariah 1:12 we need to ask what the question, How long referred to, W as it the seventy years or was it how long Jehovah would continue to denounce Jerusalem and her cities? This question immediately connects the seventy yeras with denunciation that had already began from the Fall and as the now returned Jews were back home in the the 2nd year of Darius would clearly prove that seventy yeras had already elapsed. All that remained was that the temple which is the focus of Zechariah had not then yet been rebuilt. Similarly. Zechariah 7:5 refers to the seventy years in connection with the time when Judaj lay desolarte and thus had become a time of mourning and fasting throughout the seventy years whilst exiled in Babylon. This is clearly shown by the context of this chapter from 6-14.

Yes, it is the context that settles the matter. Zechariah said in Chapter 7 that they had been fasting for 70 years, not 90 - this qualifies the period referred to in Zechariah Chapter 1.

Thus the seventy years of Zechariah are in full agreemnet with all of the other seventy yeras texts that can only pertain to a complete period of desolation-exile-servitude.

You are still wrong sorry scholar. I will reiterate at this point that Jeremiah states that there were still people left to exile in Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd year (around 583, or your 603).

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Jeffro

The seventy year texts are in total agreement that he period was on desolation, servitude and exile. The black and white reading of all those text do not indicate that this period was only of servitude to Babylon.

Jeremiah 25:12, chronologically the first mention of the 70 years, refers specifically to 70 years of serving Babylon after which the king of babylon was called to account, placing the end of the 70 years quite definitely in 539.

The texts refer quite definitely to the land lying desolate which that deportation which is exile which in turn is servitude.

What scripture says that the Jews would be exiled for 70 years? (You can't claim Jeremiah 29:10 - 'at Babylon' contradicts Jeremiah chapter 25. You can't claim Daniel 9:1-2 - 'chorbah' does not necessitate complete depopulation, and the Society acknowledges that the 70 years need not apply entirely to Jerusalem by its interpretation of the 70 years for Tyre at Isaiah 23:15. You cannot claim 2 Chronicles 36:17-23 as it was not 'sabbaths' that were the subject of Jeremiah's prophecy to which 2 Chronicles refers to 70 years as fulfilling.)

Desolation of the land-depopulation-exile-servitude.

These pretend hyphenated conglomerations of yours are really quite amusing.

This accurate history represents quite clearly what God's Word says confirmed by the prophecy of Jeremiah and Zechariah, witnessed by Daniel and confirmed by the Ezra.

The 'Society hypothesis' is not 'accurate history', is not shown 'quite clearly' from the bible, explicitly contradicts both Jeremiah and Ezra, and ignores the clear connection between Jeremiah 25:12 and Daniel 5:26-31.

The theory of servitude or Babylonian domination is imposssible because no text refers to it and it cannot be established by chronology as no one can agree as to the precise date for the beginning.

The Society agrees with Jeremiah chapter 25's 70 years including Tyre and specifically as being Babylon's most dominant period. No text refers to Babylon's 20 missing years introduced by the 'Society hypothesis', and so by your reasoning 607 is also impossible.

The seventy years of Zechariah was the same period of the others because it commenced at the same time at the Fall and the context equates it with the period of desolation. It also must have been a n historic otherwise it could not have been a definite period in both the 2 and 4 th year of Darius.

It is reasonable to suggest that the angel could have known that the period would be 70 years before they were completed, so it is completely possible that both references referred to the same period. Zechariah 1:12 strongly suggests that the 70 years had not yet ended - the 'how long' for a known period perfectly fits an expression of frustration of current circumstances. Zechariah 7:5 strongly suggests that the 70 years there referred to had only just ended.

Your theory of the seventy years is dishonest, misrepresents the Bible and amounts to shabby scholarship.

Dishonest in what way? Misrepresents the bible or misrepresents the Society's interpretations thereof? You accuse me of shabby scholarship, yet you have not shown how any point I have stated is not consistent with valid interpretations of the bible.

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Jeffro

I go away for a week and come back to the same old retorts of 'scholar'.

'Scholar' suggested that others resort to insults rather than rational argument, and in the same sentence, refers to 'wiley poztates', calls them 'morons' and other slurs.

'Scholar' makes sweeping statements that verses state such-and-such without providing any reference to which verses.

As others have pointed out, 'scholar' has continued to ignore the black-and-white statements in the bible that the 70 years of Jeremiah 25 were directly related to Babylon, that Babylon's king was called to account after the 70 years ended, and that the 70 years referred to by Zechariah is a different period that was still current in Darius' 4th year.

Instead he relies on subjective interpretations of the Watchtower Society of other verses; interpretations that are not consistent with black-and-white statements in the Bible.

'Scholar', where is your patient, loving attitude toward revealing the 'ring of truth' that should settle such a core doctrine, supported by facts that are not subject to interpretation, and that are consistent with the bible?

70

Are you now BEARDED or BEARDLESS????

by zagor in

jw
friends

just wondering how many are now wearing beard and what's the main reason for it.

rebellion perhaps?.

i just love my new goat beard and moustache.

Jeffro

I'm not terribly interested in growing a beard... but I'm not terribly interested in shaving either.
Back when I was going to meetings I would generally only shave on 'meeting nights', and now I could only be bothered shaving once or twice a week.

17

As a sexual abuse survivor myself.....................

by BLISSISIGNORANCE in

...................and mother of a child abused at the hands of a jw, i found the whole michael jackson trial and support by his fans insulting and hurtful!.

who of us can be sure if he did abuse kids or not?

how can anyone say he is guilty or innocent (except a victim if there is one)?

Jeffro

I am not convinced that Jackson's interest in children is sexual, but I do agree that it is not normal.
Not every type of abnormal or obsessive behaviour, or the focus thereof, is sexual.

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Jeffro

the context of Jeremiah 25: 9-11 is about the deolation of the land becoming a devastated place, an object of astonishment for seventy years. In order for this to occur the people of tha land would also suffer punishment as exiles in servitude to Babylon. Tjis pasage proves that the seventy years has as its primary focus desolation of the land with the people exiled in servitude for that same paeriod of seventy years.

You state this as if it is true. However your statement simply cannot be reconciled side by side with the verses in question using any interpretation of the words employed in the passage. Your implication that the verse refers specifically to Jewish exile is flawed. Jeremiah 25:9-11:

9 here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even [sending] to Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite. 10 And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. 11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’

17

As a sexual abuse survivor myself.....................

by BLISSISIGNORANCE in

...................and mother of a child abused at the hands of a jw, i found the whole michael jackson trial and support by his fans insulting and hurtful!.

who of us can be sure if he did abuse kids or not?

how can anyone say he is guilty or innocent (except a victim if there is one)?

Jeffro

it would have been much more respectful for ANY abuse survivor if the fans had just kept their opinions to themselves and waited for the outcome rather than, if he did abuse someone, run the risk of hurting the victim again and more.

I don't think he abused the children. The parents of the children allowed the children to share his bed with them, and in at least some of the cases, it was the children who asked to sleep with him, not Jackson who manipulated the events to get them into any particular situation. Celebrities with lots of money become targets for extortion, and Jackson made himself a much easier target because of his childishness and eccentricity.
That said, it is clear that the court case would evoke memories in other individuals who have been abused in unrelated cases, and for that reason is was insensitive for fans to make such public and fanatical demonstrations of support. But fans don't think of that when the person they idolize is being accused. I think you would have a difficult time trying to convince them en masse not to express their support.

11

math problem

by peacefulpete in

ex 12:40 isreal in egypt 430 yrs .

this leaves 30 years of habitation in egypt in peace.

gen 41:46,53;45:11 joseph 39 years old when israel and sons move to egypt.

Jeffro

We could just check the Egyptian history records for how long the Israelites were there. <chortle, snicker> They had an entire national group living there for at least 215 years, and nobody ever cared to mention them? Unlikely. Of course the Society justifies this with the story that the Egyptians erased all record of the Jews just like Thutmose III effaced the name of Hatshepsut, though somehow we still know her name.

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Jeffro

The very fact that your listing of the Divided Monarchy which is said by you to be modelled biblically and is similar to our biblical model should demonstrate that we too have constructed chronology on the biblical evidence which providesa solid basis for 607.

The similarity between the two models is due to the length of the reigns of the Jewish kings being taken from the bible.
The 'Society hypothesis' differs from my model where it deviates away from the bible. It does this by ignoring Jeremiah chapter 25; by stating that the entire 70 years referred to the entire exile contradicting their explanation of the 70 years for Tyre; by ignoring the fact that the word 'chorbah' does not necessitate complete depopulation; and by glossing over the Hebrew word for 'desolated' at 2 Chronicles ('shamem'-appalled [because the temple was ruined]), which does not mean devoid of people.