The previously mentioned 'phantom of the forum' has again been sending PMs about this thread. He suggested that I haven't considered... Furuli.
Oh, I laughed and laughed.
Posts by Jeffro
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38Question for JW apologists...
by Jeffro inthe new new world translation translates jeremiah 29:10 as follows:.
10 for this is what jehovah says, when 70 years at babylon are ful?lled, i will turn my attention to you, and i will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.. the official watch tower society teaching is that by the end of the 70 years, the jews were back in judea, and that their actual arrival in judea marks the end of the "70 years".
*** si p. 85 par.
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38
Question for JW apologists...
by Jeffro inthe new new world translation translates jeremiah 29:10 as follows:.
10 for this is what jehovah says, when 70 years at babylon are ful?lled, i will turn my attention to you, and i will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.. the official watch tower society teaching is that by the end of the 70 years, the jews were back in judea, and that their actual arrival in judea marks the end of the "70 years".
*** si p. 85 par.
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Jeffro
Doug Mason:
Of course the WTS does not start its "70 years" with the destruction of Jerusalem but with the exodus of some Jews into Egypt, following Gedaliah's murder.
Correct. They say the '70 years' started in October of 607, whereas Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed in August. But that doesn't help their broken interpretation of Jeremiah 29:10 highlighted by their even worse rendering in the 2013 revision.
I say that the exodus took place 4 years after Jerusalem was destroyed.
That may be the case, but it doesn't accord with the Bible, including the interpolation from Babylonian sources at Jeremiah 52:28-30, which indicates exiles taken in the year the temple was destroyed, and 5 years later. Of course, there's no indication at all that Judea was ever actually entirely uninhabited (in fact, it's known that parts of Judea remained inhabited). Even Jeremiah 44:14 refers to "some escaped ones" who went back from Egypt to Judah, years after Jerusalem had been destroyed. In any case, the idea that it took place "4 years later" has no bearing on the JW interpretation.
On top of that, when Ezra later wrote 2 Chronicles, he said that the 70 years ended when the Persians defeated Babylon, not when people assembled at the temple site.
Of course. The Bible never mentions 70 years of exile, and Ezekiel explicitly states that they started counting the exile years before the destruction of the temple.
And further, no one knows the year when those exiles from Babylon made their journey - dates from 538 to 535 are given.
It is more than likely that the way the Bible tells the story of Cyrus' decree isn't exactly what happened. In fact, it's extraordinarily unlikely that Cyrus made any great proclamations about 'Jehovah', and considerably more likely that he had a policy of religious tolerance, and allowed exiles, whether Jews or from elsewhere, to return to their homeland and worship however they liked. But, again, according to the narrative in the Bible (and supported by Josephus), the Jews who were first permitted to leave Babylon arrived in Judea in 538 BCE. And whilst Cyrus' motive is almost certainly embellished in the Hebrew narrative, there's not really any compelling reason to believe the timing in the Bible must be wrong.
In short, if the Bible is correct, JWs are wrong, and if the Bible is incorrect, JWs are wrong.
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38
Question for JW apologists...
by Jeffro inthe new new world translation translates jeremiah 29:10 as follows:.
10 for this is what jehovah says, when 70 years at babylon are ful?lled, i will turn my attention to you, and i will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.. the official watch tower society teaching is that by the end of the 70 years, the jews were back in judea, and that their actual arrival in judea marks the end of the "70 years".
*** si p. 85 par.
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Jeffro
Of course, if you were being serious, a slap would await for such apalling 'logic'.
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38
Question for JW apologists...
by Jeffro inthe new new world translation translates jeremiah 29:10 as follows:.
10 for this is what jehovah says, when 70 years at babylon are ful?lled, i will turn my attention to you, and i will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.. the official watch tower society teaching is that by the end of the 70 years, the jews were back in judea, and that their actual arrival in judea marks the end of the "70 years".
*** si p. 85 par.
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Jeffro
Splash:
"What Jeremiah evidently meant, was that the return to Jerusalem would be during the 70th year of exile."
I take it from the quote marks and the very JW-ish use of the word "evidently" that you're being facetious.
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38
Question for JW apologists...
by Jeffro inthe new new world translation translates jeremiah 29:10 as follows:.
10 for this is what jehovah says, when 70 years at babylon are ful?lled, i will turn my attention to you, and i will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.. the official watch tower society teaching is that by the end of the 70 years, the jews were back in judea, and that their actual arrival in judea marks the end of the "70 years".
*** si p. 85 par.
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Jeffro
AnnOMaly:
The biggest problem with the WTS's translation, "When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled" is that this statement was addressed to the exiles taken with King Jehioachin in 617 BCE (WT time).
Of course. But here I wanted to focus on the problems with their own interpretation of this verse in isolation with respect to the new translation.
Comatose:
They will put out a WT with a really twisted reasoning to explain this away.
The thing is, that's why the old NWT said "In accord with" the end of the 70 years. That way, there was at least some 'wiggle room' for saying it 'really' meant "when the 70 years are nearly over". But now, they've made it really really obvious that their interpretation is just wrong. This makes me more convinced than ever that the Watch Tower Society occasionally does these incredibly stupid things deliberately in order to reduce the number of thinking people in their ranks.
As I said a year ago in relation to the Sparlock video:
But aside from that, I've had a theory (just a theory) for a little while about some of the things published recently by the Watch Tower Society - 'Selma and Steve', attitude toward those who leave, and now the Sparlock DVD. It seems to me that the Society might put out some of these unfavourable messages to deliberately shed some members, hanging on to the hard-core JWs and letting go of some of the 'fringe-dwellers' who consume literature for very little return to the Society. That is, those who are less likely to accept everything, more likely to do independent research, less likely to distribute literature, and, most importantly, less likely to donate.
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38
Question for JW apologists...
by Jeffro inthe new new world translation translates jeremiah 29:10 as follows:.
10 for this is what jehovah says, when 70 years at babylon are ful?lled, i will turn my attention to you, and i will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.. the official watch tower society teaching is that by the end of the 70 years, the jews were back in judea, and that their actual arrival in judea marks the end of the "70 years".
*** si p. 85 par.
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Jeffro
A forum member who wants to pretend he's no longer on this forum has been responding (poorly) to this thread via PMs, and most recently claimed that '70 years' can be seen "both ways", apparently meaning that the 70 years can be counted with or without travelling time.
That is, of course, illogical, because in the JW belief, the 70 years includes the travel from Judea to Babylon (supposedly starting in October 607) and from Babylon to Judea (supposedly ending in October 537).
Apart from indicating that the person does not have a good grasp on logic, this also demonstrates well that the JW interpretation doesn't even allow for "70 years at Babylon". Since the Bible elsewhere suggests that such a trip can take about 4 months, and the 70 years (in the JW interpretation) purportedly includes two such journeys, the period "at Babylon" was about 69 years and 4 months.
Perhaps the new NWT should include some annotations for the verse:
10 “For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon (actually 4 months of travelling to Babylon plus 69.3 years at Babylon plus 4 months of travelling to Judea) are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place (even though you'll already be back here).’
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71
Did Adam and Eve Partake of Literal Fruit or is it Symbolic?
by Stauros inwas it real fruit they ate or does the fruit represent something else?.
e..
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Jeffro
Stauros:
Jeffro, take your finger on your left hand and poke your eyeball on the right side of your face. Experience the slight pain, and tell me how many functions it took to accomplish this. Its cool how the body was designed to enjoy all that life has to offer isn't it.......you can thank GOD for that.
If you want to go around poking yourself in the eye and imagining that somehow 'proves' the existence of 'god', go right ahead.
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38
Question for JW apologists...
by Jeffro inthe new new world translation translates jeremiah 29:10 as follows:.
10 for this is what jehovah says, when 70 years at babylon are ful?lled, i will turn my attention to you, and i will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.. the official watch tower society teaching is that by the end of the 70 years, the jews were back in judea, and that their actual arrival in judea marks the end of the "70 years".
*** si p. 85 par.
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Jeffro
The new New World Translation translates Jeremiah 29:10 as follows:
10 “For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.’
The official Watch Tower Society teaching is that by the end of the 70 years, the Jews were back in Judea, and that their actual arrival in Judea marks the end of the "70 years". For example:
*** si p. 85 par. 3 Bible Book Number 15—Ezra ***
A faithful remnant journeyed back to Jerusalem in time to set up the altar and offer the first sacrifices in “the seventh month” (Tishri, corresponding to September-October) of the year 537 B.C.E.—70 years to the month after Judah and Jerusalem’s desolation by Nebuchadnezzar.*** it-1 p. 463 Chronology ***
Hence the count of the 70 years of desolation must have begun about October 1, 607 B.C.E., ending in 537 B.C.E. It was in the seventh month of this latter year that the first repatriated Jews arrived back in Judah, exactly 70 years from the start of the full desolation of the land.*** w11 12/15 p. 31 Do You Remember? ***
The Jews were released, and they arrived in their homeland by 537 B.C.E. The Bible says that their exile was 70 years long. So Jerusalem must have fallen in 607 B.C.E.That being the case, if the Jews were already home when the 70 years ended, in what manner would Jehovah "make good my promise by bringing you back to this place" after they were already there?
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71
Did Adam and Eve Partake of Literal Fruit or is it Symbolic?
by Stauros inwas it real fruit they ate or does the fruit represent something else?.
e..
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Jeffro
Stauros:
Ok Jeffro, so how did all creation really get here since you feel you know everything.......
Surely you should realise by now that that is an entirely stupid argument.
Your premise (by no means original) is that for any question that doesn't have an easy answer, any made up answer is better than "I don't know". However, even further than that, your question ignores a great deal of what is known.
Instead, you clumsily replace "I don't know" with the preposturously arrogant claim to 'know'—with no evidence whatsoever—that "God did it".
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71
Did Adam and Eve Partake of Literal Fruit or is it Symbolic?
by Stauros inwas it real fruit they ate or does the fruit represent something else?.
e..
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Jeffro
Stauros:
[The Death of Jesus]
[Jesus Pierced on his Ribs]
[The Bride of Christ (Women)]It's certainly possible that the writers who made up stories surrounding Jesus' death were alluding to the stories about 'Adam and Eve', just as many of the other stories about Jesus were deliberately written to supposedly 'fulfill' alleged 'messianic prophecies' (most of which bear no resemblance to the context of the 'prophecies').
However, that doesn't automatically imbue any special significance on aspects on the earlier story about Adam and Eve itself, which is an origin myth derived from earlier Babylonian stories (including the details about a snake and a magical plant that gives life and enlightenment), written around the 6th century BCE, which 'coincides' with exposure of Babylonian culture to the Jewish people.