Posts by Jeffro

28

Governing Body member Sam Heard at our Assembly

by problemaddict in

nice enough gentleman.

the parts were pretty watered down.

mom asks him if he is ready.....did he clean off all the dirt?

Jeffro

tinker:

If I were a woman

Aren't you? Do your husband and children know this?

(Ah... you were quoting someone else. That's a relief.)

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

Jeffro

scholar:

Does this mean that you deny the Exile, that the Jewish nation was not exiled in Babylon?

Huh? How did you possibly get that from my statement:

Most (66% according to Jeremiah 52:28-30) of the Jewish exiles were actually taken in early 597BCE, 10.5 years before the destruction of Jerusalem. Years of Jewish exile in the Bible are only ever referenced from the exile that occurred in 597BCE (617BCE in JW land). See 2 Kings 25:27; Jeremiah 52:31; Ezekiel 1:2, 33:21, 40:1.

The fact remains that the Bible never mentions 70 years of exile.

The fact of the matter is that Jeremiah in Jeremiah 29:10 clearly asserts the fact of the Exile in Babylon for seventy years.

No. It doesn't. It just doesn't. The New World Translation words it that way, but that is not a literal rendering and is not supported at all by the context.

In the JW interpretation, Jeremiah wrote to Jews (in 614BCE) already in Babylon (since 617BCE), to tell them that they will be in Babylon for 70 years, without telling them that the period starts from some unspecified future event, and that they would return from exile only after their exile has already ended. It makes no sense.

The actual context is that Jeremiah wrote to Jews (in 594BCE) already in Babylon (since 597BCE) to tell them that after Babylon's 70 years (which started in 609BCE and ended in 539BCE), the Jews would then repent (which is what Daniel [9:1-19] also later 'discerned'), and then they would be allowed to return to Jerusalem (538BCE).

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

Jeffro

scholar:

Despite the scam my computer is now running better than ever and I can finally use the latest Internet Explorer which was not previously possible.

You really should get it properly checked. Remote control software (including Windows' built in Remote Desktop) is not necessarily malware and may not be detected as a 'threat', but may have been configured by the scammers for subsequent access. Fail to do so at your own risk. Was it also you who was infected with the 'SnapDo' browser hi-jacking malware?

Yes some intelligence and insight are certainly required and I hope I am up to the task.

Apparently not.

Arithmetic is necessary but chronology is much more than addition and substraction as I am sure you would agree.

Now you're just waffling.

All chronologists proceed upon the certain assumptions and we have have a certain theological viewpoint of history then so be it for chronology is simply an adjunct to history it is not something that stands apart from history. If it is deemed a preconceived numerology by yourself then so be it for being faithful to the prophetic word should be of concern to all Christians.

You're still waffling. No information here.

We believe most firmly as does many famous expositors that Daniel's seventy weeks of years prophecy is Messianic being fulfilled in the appearance and death of our Lord Jesus Christ and we have not distorted the reigns of Persia as you claim but that is another subject for another time.

You're welcome to believe all you like. It still isn't true.

What I have seen thus far shows that our understanding of Hoshea's reign is correct and I am confident that when I really start to dig I will find further support if I am wrong on this then I will submit an inquiry to Bethel in Brooklyn. But experience with WT chronology over many decades gives me great confidence. What further interest me is the work of Christine Tetley and her research on chronology is very controversial amongst scholars but her book I do not have so I must get a copy and see what she has written. Very excited indeed!!!

Make sure you provide updates on how your 'inquiry' to Brooklyn goes.

I am pleased that you appreciate my use of 'corrective' as a technical term for chronology, in the past I have used the expression 'fine tuning' in order to achieve harmong between our chronology and the secular but I simply appropriated the term from a paper by Rodger C Young 'Ezekiel 40:1 As a Corrective For Seven Wrong Ideas In Biblical Interpreation' in AUSS,2006, vol 44, No.2, pp.265-83. All chronologies have problems for none can be claimed to be infallible, in the case of the Divide Monarchy our chronology is purely' suggestive' but my means of applying the corrective 'seventy years then we have achieved harmonization.

I don't "appreciate" your use of 'corrective'. Your use of the term is quite stupid. It is especially stupid in view of the fact that Ezekiel 40:1 is one of the scriptures that confirms that Jewish exile was not enumerated from the year in which Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. Young's 'corrective' is in reference to defeating exactly the kind of errors inherent in JW chronology that seek to attach the 70 years to Jewish exile.

Your criticism of our interpretation of Jeremiah 29:10 is baseless because the context of that chapter clearly shows that the Jewish population or nation as a whole would remain in Babylon for seventy years.

The context doesn't show that at all. The context indicates that Jews exiled in 597 BCE were told in 594 BCE that Babylon would be dominant for 70 years. Your further claim about the "nation as a whole" in exile for 70 years is also wrong. Most of the Jews were in exile for a little over 59 years, some were in exile for 49 years, and nearly as many were only in exile for about 43 years.

We interpret the seventy years as a definite historic period of desolation-servitude-exile whereas you interpret the period only as one of Babylonish domination so according to our interpretation the criticisms that you have raised are rendered baseless as I have explained on this forum endlessly.

Jeremiah 27:8-11 clearly states that exile was a punishment for nations that would not submit to Babylon. Jeremiah chapter 25 indicates that the Jews could not avoid the calamity (which affected different nations at different time during Babylon's 70 years), but it was not too late for them to avoid exile. It doesn't matter how much you try to ignore that. You're still wrong.

For us the seventy years commenced in the seventh month 607 BCE with the destruction of Jerusalem and ended with the Return of the Jewish population in the seventh month 537 BCE.

607 is wrong. Correct year is 587BCE.

537 is also wrong. Correct year is 538BCE.

During that period the Land of Judah was desolate for seventy years, the Jewish nation was in Exile in Babylon for seventy years under the domination of Babylon as World Power for that same seventy years.

I am aware of your superstitious numerology. It's just wrong. The Bible never mentions 70 years of exile. It just doesn't. The claim that 'Babylonian domination' of all the nations counts from the destruction of Jerusalem is also simply wrong. Babylon replaced Assyria as the dominant World Power in 609BCE. After that, different nations experienced calamity under Babylon at different times, but its period of dominance is a static period that definitely ended in 539BCE. (The JW belief that Nebuchadnezzar was 'above the kingdom of heaven' during the 70 years also contradicts the story about Nebuchadnezzar being subject to God during his supposed '7 years of madness'.)

In this way all of the seventy texts of Jeremiah, Ezra, Daniel and Zechariah written from different standpoints and times are harmonized and in accordance of the description of the seventy years by Josephus. QED

Josephus correctly indicates in his later writings that the exile was fifty years. Further, he explicitly provides the period of 182.5 years (from the fall of Israel until Cyrus) that proves JW chronology wrong (another fact you simply ignore). All of the relevant scriptures are already harmonious without relying on JW superstitions. I have already shown this in detail here, here and here.

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

Jeffro

scholar:

No the Jewish population as a whole captive in Babylon were advised that their period of Exile would be 70 years notwithstanding that for some captives who were deported 10 years earlier then their period would in fact be longer if they lived that long. There is no mention anywhere in Scripture of a 80 year Exile so your comment is superflous.

LOL. There is also 'no mention anywhere in Scripture of a 70 year Exile'.

Most (66% according to Jeremiah 52:28-30) of the Jewish exiles were actually taken in early 597BCE, 10.5 years before the destruction of Jerusalem. Years of Jewish exile in the Bible are only ever referenced from the exile that occurred in 597BCE (617BCE in JW land). See 2 Kings 25:27; Jeremiah 52:31; Ezekiel 1:2, 33:21, 40:1.

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

Jeffro

scholar:

You were right. I have become a victime of a scam. I checked my on-line bank and the credit card transaction for the support services had not yet gone through, my bank has frozen my account until I can go into the bank and reset my account. I will ring Microsoft to see what they can do as as to any technical issues with the computer. It certainly does run much better as I did have some issues with it so will see what happens. Thanks for your alert.

It is important that you remove any software that was installed or any additional user accounts that were created by the 'tech', as they may leave a 'backdoor' giving them future access to the computer without any visible sign. It would be best to hire a local IT professional to check the system for malware. Specifically tell them you've been the victim of a phone support scam. You should also change your computer and banking passwords.

Still trying to help you with the other scam you've fallen victim to...

As I have said before chronology is more than arithmetic for the numbers are 'mysterious' and problematic.

Some intelligence and insight are required, but the numbers are not 'mysterious'. Just because something is 'more than arithmetic', it doesn't mean arithmetic is not relevant or that obvious arithmetical problems should be ignored.

I do not believe that we have a preconceived numerology to prop up unless of course you are referring to the Gentile Times

LOL. You don't have any preconceived numerology apart for your preconceived numerology.

or to the Seventy Weeks of Years in Daniel

The 'seventy weeks' has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. It really really doesn't. The fact that the Watch Tower Society additionally distorts the reigns of Persian kings should be a clue.

but if you omit these prophecies then you put a cloud over the entire Bible making just a book of stories with no modern day relevance.

How very poetic. Reality is what it is. Along with myths (mostly borrowed and adapted from other cultures), the Bible contains some historical accounts, often framed as 'prophecy'. It's not magical. And Santa's not real either. (Oh, you already know that one.)

I will when I have proper access to my library should be able to provide additional sources for our understanding of Hoshea' reign and I will notify you of this but in the meantime from the materials I have at hand sufficiently address the issue that you have raised and I see no evidence that our understanding of Hoshea's reign is incorrect.

You mean, you see no evidence that it is correct. I have already indicated specifically why the Watch Tower Society inserts these periods prior to the reigns of Hoshea and Zechariah. But if you can find support in any modern scholarship, go ahead.

Chronology requires a 'corrective' at some point and this is acknowledged by chronologists so we have simply used a corrective to overcome the twenty year difference thus our chronology can be harmonized with the secular. No surprises here.

Even without the 'twenty-year gap', the Watch Tower Society's chronology has many other problems. For example, the beginning of Nebuchadnezzar's reign is badly distorted in relative terms. Your claim about a 'corrective' is just an attempt to make an incredibly weak excuse sound 'technical'. There is no need for this 'corrective' when correctly interpreting the Bible's reference to 70 years of all the nations serving Babylon. The biblical account of the Neo-Babylonian period is already consistent with secular history.

The reading of Jeremiah 29:10 as 'at Babylon' rather than 'for Babylon' makes the meaning much clearer so it simply refers to the place of occupation or exile which the Jews would remain in until the seventy years for their captivity would expire soon after the Fall of Babylon, their captor. It really is quite easy.

Misdirection! Go back and read what I actually said about the context of verses 10-15 apart from the parenthetical remark about the error of "at Babylon". Your 'explanation' does not address the problem of the context at all. For a start, in the Watch Tower Society's chronology, the Jews exiled in 607 weren't even "at Babylon" for a whole 70 years. The letter in Jeremiah chapter 29 was sent to Jews already in Babylon 7 years prior to Jerusalem's destruction, so it makes no sense at all to tell them that they would be 'at' Babylon for 70 years. (Jeremiah 25:11-12 clearly indicates that the 70 years were a period during which all the nations were subject to Babylon (under its 'yoke') and not a period of Jewish exile. Jeremiah 27:8-11 further indicates that exile was only a punishment for nations that would not submit to Babylon.) But apart from all that, Jeremiah 29:10-15 directly states that attention would be given to the Jews' return after that 70 years had ended, so the 70 years cannot logically refer to a period that ends only once the Jews had already returned.

32

Watchtower Study Science Class 101

by CaptainSchmideo in

jw
friends

so, i am reading facebook today, and someone posts this little doozy on her page:.

just got done with watchtower study science class 101. so ya know how when u look at a rainbow it reminds u of jehovah's promise never to destroy the earth with a flood.

we should probably do the same thing when watching the beautiful displays of the northern lights .

Jeffro

chapstick:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_your_heart_the_organ_responsible_for_feelings_and_emotions#slide1

The last 'expert opinion' on that page is downright stupid. The moronic comment about iPhones supposedly 'checking your heartbeat' (actually in reference to the fingerprint reader) has to be the worst part.

28

Governing Body member Sam Heard at our Assembly

by problemaddict in

nice enough gentleman.

the parts were pretty watered down.

mom asks him if he is ready.....did he clean off all the dirt?

Jeffro

problemaddict:

But Jehovah sees we aren't ready and he just says "I don't want to kill all those people" (bro Heard and the entire place laugh while he says this).

That gets a laugh?!

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

Jeffro

Missed 'doubt' as I had to post from my ipad whilst my computer was undergoing online maintenance with Microsoft Support.

If the 'online maintenance' was a result of a phone call you didn't initiate from a company claiming to be Microsoft that 'detected' a problem on your system, you have likely become the victim of a scam. (The modus operandi is to convince the 'customer' that there is a virus on the computer by looking up mundane errors in the event log, and then gaining remote control of the system to 'remove' the 'virus', or getting credit card details to purchase the 'fix'.)

Anyway back to business. Nothing bizarre at all but simply I affirm that the scheme that you have developed is your own and your did it on your own but that does not mean that it is original because it basically is just the same as most other chronologies.

If I add 2 and 2 and arrive at 4, I suppose that isn't 'original' in the same manner either, because others have also arrived at the correct answer.

The difference is that it is colourful, pretty and more user-friendly therefor it is not from 'air' and I acknowledge that you use biblical data. However, your methodology or method and interpretion differs from our biblical chronology. I have cautioned you about the use of 'Decision Table Analysis' as it can get you into all sorts of trouble.

Yes, my method certainly differs from that of your idol—I am honest, and I don't have any preconceived numerology to prop up. You keep saying "our", but you are merely a pawn asserting (quite poorly) the chronology arrived at by the Watch Tower Society, in support of their superstitious numerology. Your 'caution' has no merit whatsoever, as you lack credibility.

The WT publications that I have used are not contradictory but simply revise and clarify preceeding views thus serve as valuable aids in doing Bible chronology. I am comfortable with such sources and really it is my business not yours.

It's all well and good to 'revise and clarify', but if you cite an old revision that is different to their new revision and assert that it is compatible, then you are just wrong (irrespective of whether the old or new information is correct, though both are in fact wrong).

Some chronologists do recognize the interregnum or earlier kingship of Hoshea the only differenc ethat their dates are not identical with ours. James Ussher in his The Annals of the World was the first to do so.

Circular argument. You haven't provided any source that agrees with the Watch Tower Society's view on that aspect other than Ussher, which is the source of the JW's modified (traditional) Protestant chronology. Provide evidence of any modern chronology (or indeed any secular chronology) that supports the spurious period for Hoshea.

Yes our WT chronology is consistent or in in agreement with secular chronology if a corrective is applied thus a harmonization of both chronologies is achieved.

No. That's not true, no matter how times you say it. What you are calling a 'corrective' is merely really saying 'we agree with secular chronology apart from the parts where we are wrong' (and the '20-year gap' is far from the only problem anyway). I have already shown how and why the JW chronology differs from the correct chronology. (And it's nothing to do with 'biblical accuracy'.)

Regarding Jeremiah 29:10 you have simply given your interpretation of this text, we have an entirely different interpretation of this verse which I endlessly propounded on this forum.

Feel free to 'explain' how you twist the verse in such a way that attention is given to the return of the Jews following a period that is supposedly ended once the Jews have already returned. Your convoluted 'logic' amuses me.

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

Jeffro

problemaddict:

whatever happened to third witness?

'thirdwitness' is purportedly the author of the JW apologist site refuted at the link above. His site does not appear to have been modified for some time.

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

Jeffro

problemaddict:

I have not. Would it be beneficial in your perceptions to study the current WT understanding in parallel or before looking further into the above links.

I have analysed a JW apologist site in detail here. There are links to the original article so you can compare side-by-side.

Where the apologist site occasionally deviates from official WT teaching is also included in my review.