Posts by Jeffro

24

Evidence regarding Daniel 11 & Antiochus IV

by Bobcat in

i was doing research on daniel 8 and 11. what i was wondering was if there was any evidence that the jews saw daniel 8 and 11 fulfilled in antiochus iv.. the explained fulfillments (re: antiochus; non-wt explanations) make a lot of sense, but what specifically i was wondering was if the jews (after the time of antiochus iv) saw the daniel prophecies as being fulfilled in him?

or if there are any threads that discuss this, a link would be appreciated.. thank you in advance.. take care.

Jeffro

All of Daniel chapter 11 relates to events up to Antiochus IV in the 2nd century BCE. There is no good reason to believe they refer to any later period.

See here for more information.

13

Were Daniel and Jeremiah contemporaries?

by shotgun in

i've recently read who wrote the gospels, it mentioned on a side note from the gospels that daniel was probably written around 200 bce not during nebuchadnezzars reign.. in daniel chapter 9 he mentions reading the phophetic words of jeremiah about the 70 years of servitude.

jeremiah lived in a different land (judah) while daniel was in babylon.

how would daniel have been able to get jeremiahs scrolls seeing they had just been written and also the position daniel was in as chief of nebuchadnezzars magic practising priests would not have bode well for real jewish worshippers to think about making any saturday morning placements with him.. the book i read states that jeremiah, daniel and most of the other books seperate from the talmud were not canonized until around 200 bce.. any thoughts on this or have you done or read anything on this subject.

Jeffro

RunningMan:

History tells us that Jehoiakim began reigning in 609 B.C. This would mean that the third year of his rule was 606 B.C. Nebuchadnezzar did not become king until 605 B.C. So, the intersection of their reigns is not in the correct place. As well, Nebuchadnezzar?s first attack on Jerusalem did not take place until 597 B.C., nine years later than the account in Daniel.

Actually, using Nisan-based accession-year dating (as would be used in Babylon), Jehoiakim's third year was indeed 605 BCE. Additionally, 2 Kings 24:1-12 indicates Nebuchadnezzar coming against Jerusalem prior to the siege in 597 BCE. The context of those statements is in fact accurate (and it is not unremarkable that records of the events could be available to the author of Daniel), but there is no evidence that the 'Daniel' character actually existed.

The earliest mention of him is in the following scriptures:
even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, says the Lord GOD? ? Ezekiel 14:14

As Leolaia has already expertly pointed out, the 'Dan[i]el' mentioned in Ezekiel is not associated with the character in the book of Daniel.

First of all, history shows that Ahasuerus ruled Persia between 486 B.C. and 465 B.C. So, the son of Ahasuerus could not possibly be in power in 537 B.C. The chronology is out by at least 72 years.
Secondly, the writer appears to be rather confused about Darius. There were actually three Darius? that ruled Persia, none of whom were Medes. The first Darius ruled between 521 and 486 B.C. However, Darius I was not the son of Ahasuerus. He was the father of Ahasuerus. Darius II doesn?t show up until 424 B.C., which is 42 years after the death of Ahasuerus. He wasn?t Ahauerus? son, either.

It is possible that the author of Daniel got the history mixed up, but it's also possible that the father of 'Darius the Mede' (most likely this 'Darius' was actually Cyrus' general, Gobryas) was also called Ahasuerus.

For example, Daniel served as Prime Minister to Nebuchadnezzar, and apparently held this post right up to the destruction of Babylon ? a period between 23 and 47 years in length. Yet, he is not mentioned in any of the Babylonian records from that time period.

That indeed is a significant problem with the claim that Daniel was in Babylon.

As well, the Bible tells us that Nebuchadnezzar experienced a seven year bout of madness, where he roamed in the fields and ate grass like a bull. Well, not only does the secular record not record such a thing, but there are not even any gaps in his reign. There are no seven year periods in the reign of Nebuchadnezzar that do not have references to his actions as king.

Yes, that is another significant problem with the literal interpretation.

In the third chapter of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar built an image of gold that was 87.5 feet tall, and 8.75 feet wide. This project, which would surely have bankrupted the royal treasury, was not mentioned in the secular record.

Chapters 3 and 6 of Daniel (parallel parts of a chiasm) both present stories about restrictions of Jewish worship. They are both almost certainly allusions to the ban of Jewish worship by Antiochus IV in the second century BCE.

13

Were Daniel and Jeremiah contemporaries?

by shotgun in

i've recently read who wrote the gospels, it mentioned on a side note from the gospels that daniel was probably written around 200 bce not during nebuchadnezzars reign.. in daniel chapter 9 he mentions reading the phophetic words of jeremiah about the 70 years of servitude.

jeremiah lived in a different land (judah) while daniel was in babylon.

how would daniel have been able to get jeremiahs scrolls seeing they had just been written and also the position daniel was in as chief of nebuchadnezzars magic practising priests would not have bode well for real jewish worshippers to think about making any saturday morning placements with him.. the book i read states that jeremiah, daniel and most of the other books seperate from the talmud were not canonized until around 200 bce.. any thoughts on this or have you done or read anything on this subject.

Jeffro

Jeremiah and the author of Daniel were almost certainly not contemporaries.

For an overview of the book of Daniel and how all of its contents relate to the period of writing in the second century BCE, see here.

114

Early Evidence for 1 John 5: 7

by Perry in

italic 4th and 5th century.

629 in the 14th century.

429 in the 14th century (margin).

Jeffro

Perry:

Hundreds of fulfilled prophecies are not something that can be made up on the fly, we don't live long enough to pull something like that off.

Entirely untrue. It's much easier to look at source material (supposed 'prophecies) and make up fulfilments than it would be to actually recognise actions as 'fulfilling' an ambiguous passage of an ancient text. This is especially the case where there is absolutely no evidence of any eye-witnesses to the alleged events and a largely illiterate public.

29

Video of JW's street witnessing using a tablet ... getting owned by BIble users

by wannabefree in

i came across this video ... and watched it ... why?

i don't know really, but i found it intersting.. especially interesting was how these men used the bible, they knew their message, they used an actual hard copy bible that has obviously been studied, and the older jw man, well, he was using a tablet.

it seemed cumbersome compared to using the actual bible.

Jeffro

GoneAwol:

At 12:45, the dude is reading Ps 148 v 13. He nearly finishes it before saying to the dub, "i`ll wait up 'till you find it". On your slow-pad.

This reminds me of something I recently noticed about the 2009 revision of the Reasoning Book, which omits the entire section from the original version about what to say when someone says, 'I'm a Muslim'.

The original publication included the following condescending drivel (underlining added for emphasis):

If they make strong assertions concerning their beliefs, it can be beneficial to ask them, tactfully, to show you the point in the Koran, sura (chapter) and verse. (Wait while they search for it.) When they are unable to find it, some give evidence of greater willingness to listen to what you show them in the Bible.

29

Video of JW's street witnessing using a tablet ... getting owned by BIble users

by wannabefree in

i came across this video ... and watched it ... why?

i don't know really, but i found it intersting.. especially interesting was how these men used the bible, they knew their message, they used an actual hard copy bible that has obviously been studied, and the older jw man, well, he was using a tablet.

it seemed cumbersome compared to using the actual bible.

Jeffro

Calebs Airplane:

JWs love to brag that they know more about the Bible than any other religion. But this just isn't the 80's anymore... In fact, as this video illustrates, JWs are finding it increasingly difficult to defend their beliefs because they invariably get schooled by guys like these... By the way, did anyone notice how these guys engaged in 80's-style JW "street witnessing"? You know, the militant kind that JWs used to practice when the "message" used to be "urgent" and/or "life-saving"... But notice how the passive "techy" old man quickly finds refuge in his tablet while the worldly preachers pounced on his partner... Really sad and pathetic... I'm sure they were both thinking to themselves: "Damn, we should have just kept walking and counted the rest of our time at the coffee shop down the street."

There's always been 'householders' who've known a lot more about the Bible than JWs. When encountered, JWs have always just shrugged them off as stubborn' or 'unteachable' for not agreeing with JW dogma, occasionally with a false promise of 'doing more research on that'. And of course you're not going to hear about such encounters at JW conventions. If we had youTube in the 1980s there would be videos of the same kind of thrashing back then.

29

Video of JW's street witnessing using a tablet ... getting owned by BIble users

by wannabefree in

i came across this video ... and watched it ... why?

i don't know really, but i found it intersting.. especially interesting was how these men used the bible, they knew their message, they used an actual hard copy bible that has obviously been studied, and the older jw man, well, he was using a tablet.

it seemed cumbersome compared to using the actual bible.

Jeffro

steve2:

Well, I'll grant that the taller Israeli knew his stuff but boy does he sound arrogant, swishing his water bottle around, telling the other Israeli to look up the scriptures for him and saying in an emphatic manner, "Listen" before embarking on another round.
Perhaps it's a cultural thing, but he comes across as pushy and dogmatic.

KateWild:

The non-JWs are dogmatic. The priest asks questions and doesn't listen to answers. He interupts and doesn't stick to a point.

Sounds no different to any other evangelical preacher.

38

Did it bother you that they taught, "miss a meeting and you'll fall away?"

by Wasanelder Once in

how many times did we hear that if we dont attend meetings we will leave the truth because satan will get ahold of us?

that always bothered me.

i thought, "if my faith isn't able to stand alone what good is it?

Jeffro

I recall a particular 'MS' who wasn't particularly eloquent, so when he gave public prayers it was pretty much exactly the same wording every time. One of the things he'd say without fail was asking 'Jehovah' to "help the sick ones get back to the meetings". Never "help the sick ones to get better," just get back to the meetings. I can't recall whether this was a stock phrase used by other JWs or just him.

38

Did it bother you that they taught, "miss a meeting and you'll fall away?"

by Wasanelder Once in

how many times did we hear that if we dont attend meetings we will leave the truth because satan will get ahold of us?

that always bothered me.

i thought, "if my faith isn't able to stand alone what good is it?

Jeffro

Constant indoctrination is important for maintaining irrational beliefs.

5

Snow in the Bible, say what.

by jam in

most people think of areas around israel and the eastern.

mediterranean sea as being warm to hot dry deserts in .

biblical time and especially doing moses tracked in the desert.. the first mention of snow in exodus 4:6 "behold his hand was.

Jeffro

blondie:

The Jews did not live in Egypt their whole existence. Jacob and his family moved down there when Joseph was second in command.
Also from the age of 40 to 80 Moses lived with his wife's family near Mount Horeb (Sinai) where it snows.

There's no evidence that Moses existed or that the Jews were slaves in Egypt. The 'Exodus' story is a re-write of older Ethiopian stories and other myths. Like the other books attributed to Moses, 'Exodus' was written in the 6th century BCE. It's self-evident that the authors were familiar with snow, and not remarkable given that people would have at least seen snow-peaked mountains from a distance, and heard about snow through traders, even if they had not themselves experienced snowfalls.