Posts by Jeffro

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

sparky1:

Since you have made this claim, please provide documentation that John F. Rutherford was from Missouri. That would help to confirm your assertion and get the discussion moving in the right direction.

I actually realised later that I may have mixed up some sources when I said that, and for that I must apologise. (I thought I read it somewhere, but I cannot find it.) However, since one of the sources said the gatherings represented members from multiple states, it is not at all remarkable to have a visiting speaker. Further, I also stated earlier that even if John F. Rutherford were not the individual involved, that still would not mean that it had to be Joseph. So even if John F. Rutherford could be discounted (which has not been established), it still would not give credence to the assertion that it must have been Joseph.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

Onager:

Jeffro, you would do well to remember 1Cor 13:1 - "If I post three times in a row in a thread, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal."

Ha ha. Um... I think you may have taken some poetic license there.

You've posted FIVE times. You're too invested in proving your point in an argument that you say doesn't matter.

Oh no! Not... FIVE times! I hope the guardians of fake Bible verses will forgive me for this egregious arbitrary number of sequential posts. I responded to a number of separate posts that were made in my absence. I didn't realise there was a limit. Whether Joseph Rutherford was a member of some particular group in the 19th century doesn't matter. But standards of evidence still matter, especially if people are going to update Wikipedia articles based on flimsy assumptions.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

The funniest thing about all this is just how badly some people want it to be that Joseph Rutherford had some association, as if it would imply something nefarious.

It is not at all established that Joseph Rutherford was the 'J. F. Rutherford' in some newspaper articles mentioning fraternal groups. And it's also possible that an otherwise prominent individual in a community could be invited as a guest speaker. (Though one of the articles touted as 'proof' has the J. F. Rutherford speaking "on behalf of the local Woodmen" rather than identifying him as a member of the Knights of Pythias. The same article says the gathering was represented by members from three states, so it is not unrealistic that a person could visit from Arkansas.)

But if Rutherford were a member of some fraternal group in the late 1800s, so what? It would not necessitate that he had any allegiance to the group later on. So why the rabid excitement about the possibility?

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

sparky1:

I found court records in the case of Godell v. Bluff City Lumber dated January 21, 1893 wherein J.F.(John) Rutherford was noted as being the vice-president and secy/treasurer of the Bluff City Lumber Company. Until proven otherwise, I stand with ILoveTTATT2.

That would be foolish indeed. For even if John were not living in Boonville, it would not mean he were not the indiviudal involved (and though cars were not common, there were certainly trains on which visiting speakers could get about). Added to that, even if John were not the individual concerned, that still would not constitute evidence that the only candidate would be Joseph. Hence, your logical fallacy is false dichotomy.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

ILoveTTATT2:

I have not contested your Wikipedia change, since for now I only have indirect proof.

It would be foolhardy indeed to 'contest' the Wikipedia change armed only with what you imagine constitutes 'proof'.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

ILoveTTATT2:

He always appears in articles using the same initials, but it's not questioned whether it's him because there are other factors such as a) mentioned in relation to lawyers or b) mentioned in relation to the democratic party.

Red herring. The articles referring to membership of Knights of Pythias don't refer to matters "in relation to lawyers", and speaking on matters of finance and politics is not specific to lawyers, and is certainly in the purview of someone who goes on to be president of various companies, including the Clio Lumber Company and the Bluff City Lumber Company. Hence, articles referring to lawyers may well refer to Joseph Franklin Rutherford, and have no bearing on the identity of the Knights of Pythias member.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

ILoveTTATT2:

So here is Jetthro's logic:

Not aware of any poster here named Jetthro, Jethro, or similar.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

First, it was "proof"...

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this! ... Here is the evidence: ... Edited Wikipedia to reflect this. It all fits that it was Joseph Franklin Rutherford.

Then there was some level-headed acceptance that it wasn't really 'proof' at all...

Again, I have no idea how to actually prove that this JF Rutherford was actually Joseph Franklin Rutherford. ... I am interested in finding the truth about matters. If I was wrong, then so be it.

Perhaps you would have done better to start your thread with the healthy skepticism that you eventually - albeit briefly - showed. But that again deteriorated into unsubstantiated claims that it is 'most likely' him...

It is most likely him. ... Population of Boonville, MO in 1900 was 4377 according to Wikipedia. Two J.F. Rutherfords among 4377 people? I highly doubt it. ... Same first name and middle name initial, and last name, in a small town of less than 4400 people? ... Safe to assume it's him. But now I want a "smoking gun" proof.

But there don't actually seem to be any sources whatsoever that suggest that any person named Joseph F. Rutherford was in the Knights of Pythias. None of the sources suggest "Two J.F. Rutherfords" with the "same first name". There's Joseph F. Rutherford from Missouri who moved to Pittsburgh, and John F. Rutherford from Missouri who moved to Arkansas. In future, please don't go changing Wikipedia articles until you have a "smoking gun" source that directly states what you're asserting rather than 'someone with the same initials lived in the same area and it's probably him'.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

slimboyfat:

This is not a court room Jeffro. When ILoveTTATT2 asked you whether you have proof it's not the JF Rutherford he was asking for your help to determine the facts, not throwing down a legal challenge. This is a discussion forum. Your approach seems misjudged for the situation.

Thanks for that little meta-analysis of the discussion. The fact remains that there is no reason to believe the J. F. Rutherford was Joseph and quite good reasons to believe it was John. Some people just 'really really want' it to be Joseph.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

ILoveTTATT2:

Do you have further proof that this was not Joseph Franklin Rutherford?

I see you also don't understand the concept of 'burden of proof'. I am under no obligation to affirm a negative claim. Your entire body of evidence is that a person with the same initials was a member of Knights of Pythias and your burning desire for Joseph Franklin Rutherford to have spent his earlier years in association with some 'secret order' (which ultimately has no bearing on anything anyway since it doesn't imply any ongoing agreement or affiliation).

Yet we know there was in fact a John F. Rutherford who was originally from Missouri and who we know was in the Knights of Pythias and was president of a lumber company with many members who were also members of the Knights of Pythias.

Added to this is the fact that although Joseph F. Rutherford is stated in some sources to be from Boonville, official records actually say that he was from Versaille, Missouri. Hence it is quite possible that some sources have previously conflated John F. Rutherford with the early history of Joseph F. Rutherford; though despite your incredulity, it would not be at all remarkable for there to be two J. F. Rutherfords in the same town.