wow.
wow.
wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.
slimboyfat:
More to the point it seems to be entirely in character.
Fraternal groups were quite popular at the time, and it if were him (which has not been established), it would be entirely unremarkable.
It is still not remotely clear why this potential 'discovery' merited multiple 'wows' and other 'excitement' in the initial post and some of the subsequent responses, since early membership of some group does not indicate any allegiance to or affiliation with that group later.
wow.
wow.
wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.
Athanasius:
The editors of the local newspapers, Boonville Advertiser, Missouri Democrat, and the Central Missouri Republican, were aware that there would have been confusion if there were two Rutherfords in Boonville with the same initials, and would have taken steps to avoid this by using the person's full name or listing his occupation.
That, of course, is just your assumption.
Moreover JFR was not always referred to in the local papers as J. F. Rutherford. Sometimes as Joe Rutherford, attorney Rutherford, Joe F. Rutherford, and once as "Battling Joe" during the 1892 Presidential campaign.
The fact that Joseph was sometimes referred to as things other than J. F. Rutherford has no bearing on anything unless one of those more specific references says anything about membership of the Knights of Pythias.
wow.
wow.
wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.
sparky1:
Since you have made this claim, please provide documentation that John F. Rutherford was from Missouri. That would help to confirm your assertion and get the discussion moving in the right direction.
I actually realised later that I may have mixed up some sources when I said that, and for that I must apologise. (I thought I read it somewhere, but I cannot find it.) However, since one of the sources said the gatherings represented members from multiple states, it is not at all remarkable to have a visiting speaker. Further, I also stated earlier that even if John F. Rutherford were not the individual involved, that still would not mean that it had to be Joseph. So even if John F. Rutherford could be discounted (which has not been established), it still would not give credence to the assertion that it must have been Joseph.
wow.
wow.
wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.
Onager:
Jeffro, you would do well to remember 1Cor 13:1 - "If I post three times in a row in a thread, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal."
Ha ha. Um... I think you may have taken some poetic license there.
You've posted FIVE times. You're too invested in proving your point in an argument that you say doesn't matter.
Oh no! Not... FIVE times! I hope the guardians of fake Bible verses will forgive me for this egregious arbitrary number of sequential posts. I responded to a number of separate posts that were made in my absence. I didn't realise there was a limit. Whether Joseph Rutherford was a member of some particular group in the 19th century doesn't matter. But standards of evidence still matter, especially if people are going to update Wikipedia articles based on flimsy assumptions.
wow.
wow.
wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.
The funniest thing about all this is just how badly some people want it to be that Joseph Rutherford had some association, as if it would imply something nefarious.
It is not at all established that Joseph Rutherford was the 'J. F. Rutherford' in some newspaper articles mentioning fraternal groups. And it's also possible that an otherwise prominent individual in a community could be invited as a guest speaker. (Though one of the articles touted as 'proof' has the J. F. Rutherford speaking "on behalf of the local Woodmen" rather than identifying him as a member of the Knights of Pythias. The same article says the gathering was represented by members from three states, so it is not unrealistic that a person could visit from Arkansas.)
But if Rutherford were a member of some fraternal group in the late 1800s, so what? It would not necessitate that he had any allegiance to the group later on. So why the rabid excitement about the possibility?
wow.
wow.
wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.
sparky1:
I found court records in the case of Godell v. Bluff City Lumber dated January 21, 1893 wherein J.F.(John) Rutherford was noted as being the vice-president and secy/treasurer of the Bluff City Lumber Company. Until proven otherwise, I stand with ILoveTTATT2.
That would be foolish indeed. For even if John were not living in Boonville, it would not mean he were not the indiviudal involved (and though cars were not common, there were certainly trains on which visiting speakers could get about). Added to that, even if John were not the individual concerned, that still would not constitute evidence that the only candidate would be Joseph. Hence, your logical fallacy is false dichotomy.
wow.
wow.
wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.
ILoveTTATT2:
I have not contested your Wikipedia change, since for now I only have indirect proof.
It would be foolhardy indeed to 'contest' the Wikipedia change armed only with what you imagine constitutes 'proof'.
wow.
wow.
wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.
ILoveTTATT2:
He always appears in articles using the same initials, but it's not questioned whether it's him because there are other factors such as a) mentioned in relation to lawyers or b) mentioned in relation to the democratic party.
Red herring. The articles referring to membership of Knights of Pythias don't refer to matters "in relation to lawyers", and speaking on matters of finance and politics is not specific to lawyers, and is certainly in the purview of someone who goes on to be president of various companies, including the Clio Lumber Company and the Bluff City Lumber Company. Hence, articles referring to lawyers may well refer to Joseph Franklin Rutherford, and have no bearing on the identity of the Knights of Pythias member.
wow.
wow.
wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.
ILoveTTATT2:
So here is Jetthro's logic:
Not aware of any poster here named Jetthro, Jethro, or similar.
wow.
wow.
wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.
First, it was "proof"...
Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this! ... Here is the evidence: ... Edited Wikipedia to reflect this. It all fits that it was Joseph Franklin Rutherford.
Then there was some level-headed acceptance that it wasn't really 'proof' at all...
Again, I have no idea how to actually prove that this JF Rutherford was actually Joseph Franklin Rutherford. ... I am interested in finding the truth about matters. If I was wrong, then so be it.
Perhaps you would have done better to start your thread with the healthy skepticism that you eventually - albeit briefly - showed. But that again deteriorated into unsubstantiated claims that it is 'most likely' him...
It is most likely him. ... Population of Boonville, MO in 1900 was 4377 according to Wikipedia. Two J.F. Rutherfords among 4377 people? I highly doubt it. ... Same first name and middle name initial, and last name, in a small town of less than 4400 people? ... Safe to assume it's him. But now I want a "smoking gun" proof.
But there don't actually seem to be any sources whatsoever that suggest that any person named Joseph F. Rutherford was in the Knights of Pythias. None of the sources suggest "Two J.F. Rutherfords" with the "same first name". There's Joseph F. Rutherford from Missouri who moved to Pittsburgh, and John F. Rutherford from Missouri who moved to Arkansas. In future, please don't go changing Wikipedia articles until you have a "smoking gun" source that directly states what you're asserting rather than 'someone with the same initials lived in the same area and it's probably him'.
