Posts by Jeffro

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Jeffro

No, in my view MS and factual evidence would be wholly unrelated to interpretation.

Indeed. Factual evidence has very little to do with your interpretation (and all other interpretations that seek to apply NT claims to the present period).

I would never dishonor a martyr by questioning his existence.

Circular reasoning.

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Jeffro

Vidqun:

Jeffro, if you followed the given scriptures you would see my interpretation is 100% consistent with the Bible.

I have already provided specific examples of how your interpretation is not consistent with what the Bible says.

The following is John's definition of "antichrist," not superstitious at all.

The view that ‘Jesus is not the Christ’ is the default position of everyone except Christians, and ‘John’s definition’ is redundant rhetoric. The view that anyone who doesn’t believe that ‘Jesus is the Christ’ is in some way ‘especially bad’ is a superstition.

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Jeffro

Vidqun:

You believe all of it is "convoluted nonsense."

Actually, I said that your interpretation is convoluted nonsense, specially because it isn’t even consistent with the source material. I didn’t say ‘all of it’ is convoluted nonsense. Rather, I said the NT contains statements in the apocalyptic genre, including cryptic references to events prior to the time of writing as well as other hypothetical events that they thought would happen later.

You can be an atheist, agnostic, believer or antichrist. Which one are you? If I knew that I might be able to supply you with a proper answer.

It hardly matters, and your answer should be the same irrespective of my position, unless your ‘answer’ would be some form of ad hominem. (And ‘antichrist’ is a superstitious term with no practical meaning.) The fact remains that your interpretation isn’t even consistent with the Bible.

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Jeffro

Vidqun:

this is how I see it.

Frankly, the way you see it is convoluted nonsense that isn’t even consistent with what is actually written. For example, there is no basis for asserting that the ‘signs in heaven’ are a ‘prelude’ to the ‘tribulation’. Your interpretation is not unique, but is one of various interpretations that have sought to make early Christian predictions ‘relevant’ after their original 1st-century expectations failed.

those around him did see him in kingdom glory. It's called the transfiguration.

There’s no evidence that it happened at all, but it’s also incorrect because Jesus ‘coming in kingdom glory’ is explicitly supposed to happen after the ‘tribulation’.

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Jeffro

You seem to imagine that expectation is supposed to guarantee fulfilment. People wrote stuff that they thought would happen after other stuff happened. The superstitious claims about what would supposedly follow the destruction of Jerusalem simply didn’t happen (though Revelation, written later, does also allude to some events during the reigns of individuals such as Domitian that aren’t included in the ‘gospels’). The NT claims about tribulation contai a mixture of mundane statements, hyperbole and fantasy, none of which means that any of it is legitimately ‘prophetic’.

(Also, comparison of Luke 21:25 with Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 shows that even in the story, the ‘signs in heaven’ follow the tribulation.)

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Jeffro

Vidqun:

Would you say it is all due to coincidence?

Why on earth would I call it ‘coincidence’? Later writers had access to earlier works, and the apocalyptic genre typically shares common themes, of which ‘tribulation’ is the most basic. (Asserting ‘coincidence’ as the only alternative to ‘prophecy’ is also another false dichotomy.)

Approximately 13% of Jesus’ Olivet discourse comprises information about the “great tribulation”

The ‘great tribulation’ in the NT is the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE. Jesus’ ‘return’ was explicitly expected both after the ‘tribulation’ and within a generation of his death. Earlier OT ‘tribulations’, such as Antiochus’ desecration of the temple and ban of Jewish religion in 168 BCE alluded to in Daniel, do not refer to the same event.

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Jeffro

Vidqun:

I really don't understand your "historical view."

It is obviously more exciting to pretend Revelation has some special meaning for now and into the future, but it is not remotely ‘hard to understand’ that it actually referred to events around the time of writing along with a hypothetical end time expected to follow shortly after.

NT prophecy has permanent significance because no one knows the hour

Or in other words, vague ‘prophecies’ can be reused as needed when earlier interpretations fail.

Every page shows also how free the author is from the letter of the OT and from any attested apocalyptic tradition. This is why the question of the theological and prophetic significance of the images must be raised.

This is a plain old false dichotomy. Essentially saying, ‘He’s not using the meanings from the OT so it must be prophetic instead.’ No.

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Jeffro

Sigh. 🤦‍♂️

Revelation borrows imagery from Daniel, but the purposes are quite different.

Daniel describes various empires from Babylon down until Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid dynasty.

Revelation on the other hand refers to the Roman Empire ('Babylon the Great' is Rome, which was a city that had a kingdom over the empire's various client kingdoms). The various 'beasts' in Revelation depict successive Roman emperors during the first and early second centuries, along with their impact on Christians. This was supposed to lead into a hypothetical future 'end time' typical of the genre.

Relevance to anything happening now remains exactly zero.

20

Am I Expected to Become One of Jehovah’s Witnesses if I Study the Bible With Them?

by Ron.W. in

(ps.

Jeffro

Ron.W.:

Am I Expected to Become One of Jehovah’s Witnesses if I Study the Bible With Them?

Yes.

you are not obligated in any way

This is a bait-and-switch, irrelevantly stating that a person is not obligated to join (which is obvious because they have no legal authority to force conversion), but it is quite separate to their expectation.