Posts by Jeffro

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

The six datable events anchor the entire book in the 6th century BC for any other claim is simply nonsense.

Identifying datable events in a work only confirms that the work was written some time later than those events. And because Daniel has obvious references to events during the Seleucid period (as is explicitly accepted in JW dogma), the time of writing is thereby identified as being around 164 BCE. Setting aside the exaggerated end times claims about a hypothetical future, there are no details in Daniel requiring knowledge beyond around 164 BCE. (Daniel was in circulation by the end of that century so writing couldn’t have been much later than 164 BCE either.)

Christian re-interpretations that some of the elements refer to the Roman Empire, to Jesus, or to the modern era are incorrect and all the elements in Daniel can be identified with events up to the 2nd century BCE.

Daniel’s dream and visions

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

Disillusioned JW:

Jeffro scholar presumes that the writer of the book of Daniel is sincere in everything he wrote in the book of Daniel (and not writing a story intended to be thought of as fiction to some extent). scholar presumes that all of the books of the Bible are honestly written. Likewise the WTS claims that all of the books of the Bible are honestly written; after all they claim that all of the books of the Bible are Jehovah God's word.

Uh… yeah… quite aware of his position. I generally consider him too far gone as a Watch Tower Society shill to get through to him, but I point out his obvious errors for the benefit of other readers (and for my own amusement).

But even to the extent that he claims to accept what the Bible says, JW dogma trumps the Bible where required. For example the Bible’s stated order of events is that the 70 years end, then the Jews repent, then attention is given to their return (Jeremiah 29:10-14), but ‘scholar’, parroting the Watch Tower Society, insists that 70 years ends only one they’ve arrived home, making it redundant to then ‘give attention to their return’.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

By your reasoning the opening words o Dan 1:1 clearly identify a 6th century BC historical setting

Huh?! Have you totally lost the plot? Your claim isn’t at all supported by ‘my reasoning’. The opening words of Daniel identity a setting, but there’s nothing about the statement that confirms when it was actually written. You don’t understand that a later writer could have access to historical details of an earlier period? What is wrong with you?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

Dan.12:4 clearly states its writer, Daniel?

The ‘book’ referenced in that verse is the one also referenced at Daniel 12:1, which is purportedly a list of survivors, and not the book of Daniel. And the verse doesn’t name Daniel as its author either.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

How then can it be verified then that Daniel was written in the 2nd century BC and who its writer was especially as Dan.1::1 clearly assigns a 6th-century date for its composition and Dan.12:4 clearly states its writer, Daniel? and how can it be verified that the book ha in its 12 chapters in total has anything to do with Jewish persecution and events in the time of the Maccabees?

And the author of Moby Dick is identified as Ishmael in the opening sentence. Guess that clinches it. 😂 Also, by your ‘reasoning’ the author of Daniel chapter 4 is “clearly” Nebuchadnezzar, not Daniel. 🤦‍♂️

People who understand and respect context can figure it out and have done so for centuries, including modern scholars, and just as I was able to do in my own independent analysis. I understand why you have difficulty with the concept though.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

If Daniel was not a prophet and Daniel was simply a historical account of Jewish oppression of the 2nd century then why did Jesus refer to Daniel as a prophet and make reference to a future fulfilment as prophecy pertaining to Jerusalem?

There’s no evidence Jesus said anything of the sort. Words attributed to Jesus in the anonymous ‘gospels’ written decades after his death are unverifiable, and in any case is a fallacious appeal to authority. Aside from that, those works mention Daniel because the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians is used as an allegory for the destruction by the Romans, just as it was used as an allegory in Daniel for Syrian oppression.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

So if the tree dream in Dan.4 is not historical and if it the book of Daniel is of the 2nd century BC presented as history then why was such such a tree dream included in the book?

The story about Nebuchadnezzar going mad borrows elements from a Babylonian story of Nabonidus. But the reference to ‘seven times’ is likely also a reference to the ‘seven sabbaths’ (49 years) from Jerusalem’s destruction in 587 BCE until the Jews returned in 538 BCE. In the context of Daniel’s main theme, that period of Jewish oppression and restoration is analogous to the ban of Jewish worship in 168 BCE until its restoration in 165 BCE.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

The Maccabean Thesis is simply that , with no firm evidence to support such a wild hypothesis for it originates with Porphyry, a critic of Christianity in the third century.

Nope. Despite your attempt at ad hominem, direct analysis of Daniel confirms that it refers to rulers from the neo-Babylonian period up until the Seleucid period with special focus on Antiochus IV Epiphanes’ ban of Jewish worship from 168-165 BCE. Knowledge of or deference to Porphyry is not required.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

“Maccabean hypothesis” is a nonsense term employed by Christian denominations that insist that Daniel is talking about Jesus. The mentality is similar to insisting that evolution is ‘just a theory’ or the term ‘allopathic medicine’ used by woo peddlers to dismissively refer to standard medical practices.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

As you are an advocate of the Maccabean hypothesis in relation to the timing of Daniel

It’s not the “ Maccabean hypothesis”, it’s just the actual basis.

then perhaps you can enlighten us as to whether Neb's tree dream was a real historical event and that Neb was vacant from the throne for a period of time?

Haha. Of course it’s not historical. There isn’t even a suitable seven-year period in Nebuchadnezzar’s reign for it to have happened. But let the apologist movement spill forth (already attempting to water down to ‘a period of time’)... 😂 Can’t guarantee I’ll bother responding to your nonsense further though.